Swell AI Transcript: CodeSwitchReady.mp3

SPEAKER_01 Welcome to the candy shop. We speak in on things you like Welcome to the candy shop. We speak in on things. You just press play and let it ride Welcome to the candy shop. I feel like we're going through mad things. Gotta keep it real when they choose not We're gonna talk about it when the news drop welcome to the show where you know, we don't fake this Keep your opinion to yourself if it don't make sense

SPEAKER_05 Hey hey hey Podcast Nation it's your girl Candidly Kristen and this is the Candid Shop where we keep it candid. Tonight we are going to do a deep dive into code switching. What it is, why we do it, and do we really need to do it anymore. Joining me for this long overdue and important discussion are host of the Frazier Chronicles podcast Mr. David Frazier. industrial and organizational psychology practitioner, founder and CEO of Junori and Junori Publishing, and author of Sharing My Lens of the College Experience, Dr. Juliet Nelson. And last but certainly not least, psychologist and assistant professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Michigan, Dr. Miles Durkee.

SPEAKER_06 OK, OK. So welcome, welcome, welcome. David and Juliet, are you guys both hearing OK?

SPEAKER_03 I can hear you. So I had to manually hit the mute and unmute button? I can hear you. I think that might do it. I can hear you as well.

SPEAKER_06 OK, yay. I was getting nervous. I'm over here sweating and whatnot. OK. Before the Candid Shot went on hiatus for the summer, I had posted a poll to the Facebook group, Candidly Speaking. And the poll was, how many of you code switch around non-BIPOC people? And be honest. So of the respondents, 40% said, I do it daily. 35% said, I do it sometimes. 15% said, nope, I talk the same regardless. And 10% said, what the hell is code switching? So. I thought that was interesting. And because I did have what the hell code switching in there, I wanted to first, before we dive into the meat of the conversation, ask each of you to tell me what code switching means to you. Then I'm going to give the Webster's definition kind of, and we'll go from there. So David, if you want to go first and tell me what code switching means to you.

SPEAKER_04 Yes. Yeah. So cold switching. Um, if I had to come up with a terminology for it, it would mean to me, basically changing who you really are to meet a demand somewhere else. That's what I would say. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 All right. And Juliet and Juliet, do you want me to call you Juliet? Dr. Nelson, which do you prefer? Hello.

SPEAKER_03 Juliette, if you hit the mute button and then unmute it again, it might work. That did the trick for me.

SPEAKER_06 No, we can't hear you, Juliette. All right, we've got to figure out what's going on with Juliette's sound. But in the meantime, Miles, if you would give us your definition of code switching, what it means to you.

SPEAKER_03 Yeah, so I like that question because I'm giving like the textbook definition. Essentially, I would define co-switching as adapting myself depending on the context I'm in, but typically to accommodate someone else's comfort. So to make them feel more comfortable so that they'll either treat me more fairly or not see me through the lens of stereotypes and stigma.

SPEAKER_06 OK, I like that one. And Juliet, are you with me? OK. Juliet if you see a little microphone and you hit it and then hit it again, it should unmute you maybe drop off and Come back in and see if that works and then I'll send you an invite okay, so The Webster's definition or the textbook definition is the practice of alternating between two or more languages or varieties of language in conversation. So I'm a stats person. So here's a little stat I found in my research. In 2019, Pew Research found that 48% of black college graduates in America felt the need to change how they talk around people of other races. Code switching for the most part has to do with language, but it can also be behavioral, how we move, how we shake somebody's hands, how we greet them, how we ask about their day. So there are two schools of thought. There's the correctionist approach that says that someone's native speech is broken or poor grammar, that they're less educated, and correctionists believe that they just need to master, air quotes, correct English. Then there's the controversial approach that emphasizes the importance of language plurality. I like the controversial approach. So if you both all, and I'm hoping Julie gets her mic fixed, can respond, Now we can hear you. Yay.

SPEAKER_02 I'm so very sorry. I don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_06 That is OK. When it's live, it's all good. And it gets edited, so I can fix a lot of stuff. So then I'll go back to you for your definition of what code switching is, what it is for you.

SPEAKER_02 I would say code switching is changing your use of language, in a sense, or vernacular to address the environment that you're in, that might often come with the intention of trying to fit in. I think we might find that often happening in places where we don't necessarily identify with other people around us, but it can also occur in times when we want to fit in even the spaces with the people we identify with. So that's what I would, how I would define code switching.

SPEAKER_06 Okay. I like all of your definitions, and I kind of agree with all of them. I was talking to David and Miles earlier, Juliet, before you came on about my experience. I grew up in a household full of educators, so I always spoke, like, really proper English, not a lot of ebonics or slang. So I found myself code switching to fit in with people that look like me because I didn't want to sound corny or white or whatever. So I don't know if that's reverse code switching, but that was my experience. Now, Dr. Miles, I want to go to you because you've done extensive research into the dynamics of code switching. And I'd like for you to kind of give me your take on why we do it when we do it. And is it a signal of identity issue, inferiority issue, or simply what we just had to do to put other people at ease and to show up better in spaces where we wanted to get some kind of specific outcome?

SPEAKER_03 Yeah, now I hear that. So I'll start off by saying that code switching in and of itself is just a universal process that nearly all human beings do to some extent. So we're interacting with someone from a different background, different culture, or just, you know, may follow different norms in ourselves. A lot of human beings are naturally going to code switch a certain extent to try to find a middle ground to make communication easier and more seamless. But unfortunately, we know that code switching isn't always voluntary. And oftentimes for folks from more marginalized backgrounds, or even if you're severely underrepresented, society creates certain circumstances where those minority folks are almost pressured and expected to code switch in order to be respected and even invited and even allowed into certain spaces. So that's where code switching can become toxic, because then the majority group expects people from other backgrounds to code switch to accommodate their preferences, their norms, their expectations, their standards. And that puts unfair pressure on folks who are already oftentimes marginalized and oftentimes in the severe minority, if not the only person in that space.

SPEAKER_06 All right. Now, in your research, how did you see this influencing psychological, social, mental health, identity, academic outcomes for, I'm just going to use the term BIPOC people?

SPEAKER_03 Yeah, absolutely. So we know that code switching is exhausting because it's not easy to do. So for anyone who's tried to intentionally code switch in a brand new space, they probably realized that they quickly failed at it if it was one of the first times they'd done it, or they haven't done it in a while. So code switch is definitely a skill set that you have to continue to practice, because even if you go a prolonged period of time without having a code switch, whether that's even back to your own cultural group, if you live in, let's say, a predominantly white space for a long period of time, it takes that adjustment process. So some of the consequences from prolonged code switching, when it is more expected and forced, typically in the workplace or an educational context, I mean, it definitely leads to emotional exhaustion. In professional settings, it does contribute to burnout. And burnout is one of the number one red flags that leads to employee turnover, which should be a major consideration for organizational leaders to try to lessen that extent of feeling burnt out from your position. Now, we're currently also looking at how it affects your mental health and well-being. How does this affect your depressive symptoms over time, your anxiety? And in our current data collection, we're looking at also how it affects your body's physical health. So how it triggers stress hormones in your body when you're forced to code switch, and what are the long-term chronic effects of that dynamic?

SPEAKER_06 Got it. Now, when we say forced, because are people like standing at the door saying, you've got to talk like this, or is it small kind of microaggressive behavior that would make somebody believe that, make it forced?

SPEAKER_03 Yeah, so in our case, in our lab study, we are forcing them to code switch. So because it's a controlled environment, we can control the social norms and expectations in that setting. So we are forcing it to an extreme extent, probably more. But in the real world, typically, it's the expectations of going into a new space. So when you enter a space, and let's say you're on a job interview, and you realize that the majority of the panel interviewing you are from, are all white, are all from the dominant group, that itself can send a subtle expectation for individuals that may fill that expectation to code switch in order to accommodate the comfort of that panel that's going to be observing and evaluating them.

SPEAKER_06 OK. And Dr. Juliette, what do you say to that same question that I posed to Dr. Miles about you work in a kind of a diversity and inclusive space in workplaces, am I right?

SPEAKER_02 That's correct.

SPEAKER_06 Okay, so in what you do, how do you see code switching affecting BIPOC people's psychological identity outcomes?

SPEAKER_02 Right, so I completely agree with Dr. Miles. My focus is more on the organization and the people in the organization. And when you're coming from a DEI perspective, diversity, equity, and inclusion, the goal is to ensure that employees are accepted just as you are, right? That concept of belonging, where you don't necessarily have to adjust who you are to feel that you're welcome in the space where you're at. And so, and someone has to abbreviate a part of themselves, leave a part of themselves at home, including, you know, their use of language, that also impacts their performance, it impacts their feeling of psychological safety in the workplace. Of course, you're also concerned about how people perceive you. There's also that pressure of us having to work twice as hard, right? So it goes into you having to try twice as hard to be someone that you perhaps are not, or even even being perceived a certain way, right? Dr. Miles also mentioned, like, if you're used to just speaking what people may call proper English, right? All of a sudden, you might be looked at differently because you're seen as speaking quote unquote white when it's just you speaking, using proper English or proper grammar. I know for myself, coming from, you know, being a child of immigrants, Haitian parents, you know, having an accent, I know people in my circle who they do everything to get rid of their accent so that they feel like they fit in. And then when they come into the circle of their fellow Haitian brethren or their fellow West Indian brethren, all of a sudden, you know, they unleash the accent comfortably. But again, it all contributes to that feeling of psychological safety where you don't feel safe enough to be exactly who you are in the workplace.

SPEAKER_06 Okay. And David, did you have any comments or want to share any of your thoughts or experiences at this juncture?

SPEAKER_04 Yes. I want to piggyback on what Dr. Juliette said when she was talking about being a part of a different culture. and trying to get rid of that accent, I see a lot of it happening in different workspaces. So like in office space places, so like whether it be a hospital, whether it be in your colleges, a lot of people try to fit in with that lingo. So if you have a lot of people who are proper speakers, what they tend to do if they have an accent is they try to catch or change how they talk so that they won't feel like they are outsiders if it makes sense. And we see that a lot, especially in our workforce. And I know the workforce is forever changing, but when it comes to the language, the language that people speak and how they speak is really changing as well. So I wanted to just piggyback on what Dr. Juliette said, even though I agree with both Dr. Miles and Dr. Juliette.

SPEAKER_06 Well, thank you. I appreciate that. So guys, when we talk about code switching, for the most part, we're talking about language, but what other ways do we code switch?

SPEAKER_03 So definitely language is by far the most common aspect of code switching. I just wanted to highlight based on what David said too, is you see it very blatantly when folks answer the phone. So I think everyone's aware of their phone voice, or at least they've noticed someone else and heard their phone voice. For me, being a young kid, my mom had a very distinct phone voice. Even when I called her at work, I couldn't even recognize her on the phone because she sounded like a white woman. So I would oftentimes ask to speak with my mom, even when she answered the phone, because she sounded like a completely different person. But some of the other dynamics of code switching, name is another important one. So we know after three decades of resume audit studies that a single name on a resume, the exact same resume, is going to get less callbacks than a white sounding name.

SPEAKER_06 I'm sorry. Hold on. I'm about to.

SPEAKER_03 No problem.

SPEAKER_06 To, uh, to block this person. Cause you know, you always have trolls.

SPEAKER_03 I saw Chuckie and got a little nervous from the picture.

SPEAKER_06 You know, like come on now, get out of here.

SPEAKER_03 Yeah. But otherwise the code switches to include your hairstyle, jewelry selection, um, clothing style, not only just the brand you're wearing, but even how you're wearing that clothing, like even a baseball cap, the way you're rocking it, your jeans, how you're wearing them. The way you walk, your handshakes, like there's just pretty much your entire behavioral profile. You can adapt that to hit certain racial cues or to suppress certain cultural aspects of yourself.

SPEAKER_06 And hair is a big thing now for women of African-American descent or whatever you want to call it. Like I wear locks. I am fortunate enough to not work in a place that has restrictions on how you wear your hair. But there are many places that do. And I believe California is the only state that I'm aware of that has any laws in place that prohibit employers from doing that. The Crown Act, I believe. Yeah. Yep. The Crown Act. Yep. You are absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 If I may add to that, Dr. Myles said a whole lot, which I really appreciated. I want to start on the hair topic because I have blue hair. I once had pink hair and I had blue hair. And when I first joined the agency that I'm working at now, I remember putting in extensions. And I put black kinky twist extensions, but I didn't do it because of how versatile my hair was or how I would normally approach doing my hair when I fit in, for lack of better terms. But I did it so that I was agreeable or that I was accepted. I remember speaking to another black woman and saying, hey, at the time, I had fire red and blonde hair, natural hair. And I was like, I really want to wear my natural hair. Is it OK? Is that accepted here? And she's like, yeah, as long as it's neat. And it was at that moment that I was like, no. No one defines what neat looks like on this Black woman's hair. Then I said, you know what? I'm going to make that decision to just step out as whoever I am. What I noticed is that, yes, some people were kind of thrown off by it. But I think it just takes a few people to just be like, listen, this is who I am. Take it or leave it. If I don't fit here, then I don't want to work here. And there will be those few people who say, you know what? No, actually, you do fit here. And we like you just the way you are. I remember even a mentor saying, you know, when we look at white people, they color their hair, blonde, brunette, red, all these colors. And we never look at them a certain way. And then when black women, you know, get their hair colored or they, or even black men now, you know, getting locks or putting your hair in twists. side eye them. And so I think it's, it's really important for us to have conversations. And, you know, even about code switching beyond just using language, I think even with language, you know, some of us we grow up where, you know, there's a lot of slang or what some people call the black vernacular, right? And I've heard Black people, you know, they're trying to put on, you know, the higher-pitched voice and get their voice down to a little bit of a whisper so they don't sound quote-unquote aggressive and so on and so forth. But you can tell the struggle in them trying to twist their words of what people call slaying just so that they sound agreeable. and they stumble on their words and so on and so forth. But again, these conversations are important because it's like, so what? If that's our vernacular, then that's what it is. The point is that I'm able to conduct the service. I'm able to manufacture the product or get the work done. But the constant judgment and forcing us to abbreviate who we are, whether it's in how we dress or the styles we wear or hair color and so on and so forth,

SPEAKER_06 I agree. I agree. I think we are allowed to show up how we show up. And as long as we are doing the job, or like you said, performing the service, what does it matter if my hair is the way it grows out of my head? Yeah, I absolutely agree. Now, I don't know if you guys have ever seen, there was a 2018 film called Sorry to Bother You. It starred Lakeith Stansfield, and he played a guy who was a telemarketer, right? And he was struggling to make his sales quota at this job, right? Until one of his Black colleagues leans over and says, man, you got to use your white voice. Now this is a 2018, I think it's on Netflix. If you haven't seen it, watch it. It really is amazing to describe how code switching kind of seeps into your workplace, that environment. Have any of you guys seen it?

SPEAKER_03 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's yeah, and I love how they make code switching. They do it in a very satirical way, which is going to show you how extreme code switching could be in certain situations.

SPEAKER_06 Really, it is. So now I want to know, code switching, microaggressions, cultural invalidations, all of it kind of wrapped up. How do we unravel it? Because I just like to talk how I like to talk, in whatever situation I'm in, regardless of the audience. If I'm home chilling in mixed company, I don't want to have to check my speech if I'm out and I'm out with a couple black friends, a couple white friends, a couple Asian friends. I just want to be me. The solution and the remedies, are they on us or on others? Or a little bit of both? What do you guys think? And anybody can answer.

SPEAKER_02 I would say a combination of both. I think there does need to be the acknowledgement that some people really don't know. You really think they don't know? I said some. Some. Okay. All right. Ignorance comes in, right? You don't know any better. And so I know going to a predominantly Caucasian school, you have kids who ask questions and you realize, yeah, they probably see most of other white kids. What happens is when you have the ability to learn and you choose not to, that's where it just becomes plain stupidity or arrogance. And so, um, I think there is space to find how I don't know, but to find a healthy medium between being willing to contribute to the conversation of, you know, just because we might speak differently or use the English language differently, it doesn't make us less educated, it doesn't make us less capable, it doesn't make us less responsible. I think at the same time, there also needs to be a level of intentionality on whatever side it is. And intentionality from white people, intentionality from also black people, right? Those who are in places of privilege who might feel that, okay, I speak a certain way and I might be a little bit better than those who perhaps don't speak the same way that I do, because that's also a contribution to the problem. Um, yeah, if we're able to kind of find that healthy middle ground where yes, we are, there are some of us who are willing to have the conversation with those who do want to understand, perhaps even in workplace training, um, you know, not only focusing solely on, you know, race, gender, just like the very surface level parts of race and gender, but also bringing in names, bringing in language, bringing in use of English into the conversation, bringing in hair, and really having that conversation and promoting that idea that just because my name is pronounced differently, whether it's a Bob or a Devante, it's still beautiful just the way it is. You may not have been used to hearing that type of name, but that doesn't make my name less than. if I have an accent, if I use a certain type of language that's not recognized by the Oxford Dictionary, it doesn't make me less capable, it doesn't make me less able. And so when we're able to develop and implement training like that and really bring white people in the room and having those conversations and also contributing to those trainings, because if you're able to pronounce, what is it? Swarovski? Why can't you pronounce Jamil? So bringing them in the room to also have these conversations so that training is implemented and people, you know, there's more of a cultural acceptance of, and that would take time, but there's a cultural acceptance of, you know, regardless of your use of language, regardless of your accent, regardless of how you show up, the important part is that you did, you're able to perform, you're able to be, and you're able to contribute.

SPEAKER_06 Hey, man, I love it. David, Miles, your comments on the solutions and remedies? Because code switching is exhausting, I'd like to not to have to do it. So how do we move toward a space where it's not necessary? And I know that may be a long time coming.

SPEAKER_04 I would like to dive in if possible. Please do. The way to unravel it, and this is my opinion, is I think two words come into play. I think respect and love. I think if we respect each other's differences, it'll go a long way. I don't think a lot of times people respect other people's languages, how they look, what their hair looks like. what they drive, where they live. I think a lot of people judge them more so than respect them. I think when we come down to love, I think that we should love that we are different and we have to accept that we are different. Sometimes we want to we want to be with the crowd, if it makes sense. But we have to understand that we are different in getting other people to respect us or respect our differences. We have to. One, we have to understand we are different. And they have to understand that they are different. I can't make someone accept me. All I can do is be me. And I think sometimes we all have done it. We all try to fit in so much instead of loving our differences and loving that we are different. And the last one I want to say is learn about each other. I think a lot of times we don't know about white people as much and white people don't know as much as about Blacks. I think that when we come together, now all of a sudden here we are, we're trying to scramble to learn each other. And that's where we get the code switching a lot. Because now here we are at the table, we didn't really care too much to learn you when we were away from you. Now we're here. Now we have to dive in and be who we are really not. Because when we were away from the whole situation and around our group of people, we kind of do what we do. And then when we go around them, all of a sudden out here, we are changing because we can't accept the fact of our differences. And then it's hard to respect one another. So that's just my opinion on it.

SPEAKER_06 All right. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 And Miles? Yeah, I love that, David. I agree with all the advice that was shared by David and Dr. Juliette. I think we need all of those strategies. It's a So, Kirsten, that's a hard question to answer because it's not a one size fits all solution. Right. So, so far, we're finding that they're pretty much we talk about black folks specifically. There are generally four types of profiles of people that we find in the data that we have so far. So the first is those who feel that they don't have to code switch because standard American English is their default way of speaking. OK, are in these spaces. They feel like they can just talk the same way they always have because that is what their norm is. So when someone tells them, oh, you can stop code switching now, they tend to get stressed out because they feel like, wait a minute, I'm not code switching. Right. They have to emphasize their blackness in a way. Like you said, reverse codes is code switching in the right direction in order to have that inclusiveness within the community. Now, the other camp of folks we find are those who are unapologetically Black, and they refuse to code switch. So even when they're in those environments where there's clear expectations and pressure that they code switch, they're just not going to do it, all right? They're not going to say, you're going to get what you're going to get. Now, the other two camps of folks for us are pretty interesting. So we have probably what might be even the largest group are those folks who do feel that pressure to code switch at work and switch their behavior. And they do code switch only in certain spaces. All right? And this camp of folks, they're consciously aware when they're doing it. Like, they notice that pressure, they notice those cues, and they adapt accordingly. But that's the camp that we feel is going to be the most fatigued, you know, experience the greatest amount of emotional exhaustion, because they're consciously aware of how they're changing themselves multiple times throughout the day. The fourth camp, they're somewhat like, we're still trying to understand this fourth camp. Now, these are the folks who've probably been code switching their entire life. They probably saw their parents doing it, and they've been modeling it for many years. So now because they've been doing it for so long, it's almost become automatic, like second nature. It's not as they're not as consciously aware that they're even code switching. Because as soon as that environmental cue gets introduced, their behavior adjust accordingly in real time almost immediately. And they're not, they're not all that aware of how much they're changing their behavior. So when I ask them about code switching, they report, oh, yeah, I'll barely, maybe I'll code switch sometimes. But when you just watch their behavior, you see their code switching nonstop. But because society has taught them to do that so frequently, it's now part of their personality, because it is becoming like that second nature. So at this point, we're trying to figure out still how detrimental it is. For that camp, we're going to be doing it automatically. Is it less detrimental than it is for the camp who's consciously aware that they're doing it and is consciously aware of how fatiguing it is?

SPEAKER_06 Right. That's interesting. That was really, really interesting. And let me think on that for a minute. I had to breathe on that. The camp that doesn't even know that they're cold switch, and they just do it almost inherently. It's second nature. Is that a cultural identity crisis or issue? Or is it just learned behavior?

SPEAKER_03 I would call it a learned behavior. I mean, for that camp of people, they weren't born code switching, but given their experiences in society, they've been socialized to code switch. And after a prolonged period of time, that socialization has now evolved and just become a part of who they are. So as they move across these spaces, it's hard to determine whether they're being authentic or not, because now it's just part of who they are. You're just getting a certain dimension of them, depending on what space you're meeting them in. Got it. Got it. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 Got it. If I may add to that, I think I think the recent social events have made some aware of what they were not even conscious that they were doing. I know myself, I code switch a lot, and it's not just an English, you know, a vernacular thing. It's also switching between accents, you know, having to avoid people asking me which island from the Caribbean I'm at, I'm from, when I'm actually born in this country. But I think for a lot of people, you know, especially now that mental health is such a very, it's a resounding theme these days. And you see all of the social events where being black is constantly in every single way a target, no matter what you do. I think people are becoming more aware of the fact that, wow, I'm actually having to adjust who I am before I walk into this meeting, before I walk into this workplace, before I get on and I do this video, before you know, in so many situations. I mean, think of getting pulled over by a cop and it shakes you up. But guess what happens before you walk into that office? You take a deep breath and you're like, I'm going to be okay, right? You put on that fake smile. Good morning. How are you? How is everyone? I think especially. fence. Now you're like, oh my goodness, that's what I've been doing all this time. And just the thought of that becomes exhausting. How exhausted you were without even noticing it, right? The same way people were on this go, go, go, go, go before COVID happened. And now that they've been able to enjoy working from home and life is a little bit slower and they can spend more time with their families and on themselves, it's like, oh, wait, you know, I've been just on autopilot all this time, but there's this new life where I can be a little more comfortable. And I think that's the same thing with cold switching. where we're realizing how much we've just had to force ourselves to fit in and how much even then sometimes we're not even accepted. And now noticing that we're like, man, that is exhausting. So yeah, I think it is learned behavior. And now that some people are actually realizing, oh my goodness, I'm doing it, they're also seeing how exhausting it is for them.

SPEAKER_03 Yeah, I'll just add in bringing it to, I think the work from home context made it blatantly aware for a lot of folks too, because when they had to, you know, commute to work, it was easy to co-situate at work. But now if you're at home, you got your baby next to you, they're remote learning, you're trying to co-situate on Zoom, out in the same tone of voice that you normally do. Worlds just collided all at one time in the same space. It made it that much more complicated.

SPEAKER_02 Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 And I think the onus is on workspaces, spaces where we feel like we had to do it, to make it less so we don't feel like that. Like if we come in speaking however we speak, as long as it's not vulgar, offensive, you know what I mean? Then there should be, I'm still speaking English. If I clip the end of my word, I know you still know the word that I said. So I guess I'm always thinking about solutions. I'm a solutions type girl. So I'm always wondering what employers and workspaces and university spaces and sports spaces can do to be more inclusive. And that means in all ways. So this conversation goes a long way to talking about it. You can't change everything, but you can't change anything unless you shine some light on it and people get to hear it. And I guess, like Juliette said, some people just aren't aware how exhausting it is for us to have to do that all the time. And even our own people aren't aware how exhausting it is for us to feel like I talk like I talk. And it's not like you, but we family, and I should be able to talk to you without you looking at me and going, stop talking white. I mean, come on. You know what I mean? So, I am at this point going to open the lines up for callers. I blocked the troll so he won't be calling. If anybody in the chat wants to call, ask a question, make a comment, share an experience, now's the time to do it. Okay, so I don't see anybody chomping at the bit to call in. So, In conclusion, I would like from each of my guests, and you guys can pick whoever goes first, your final thoughts on the subject of code switching. And I'd like for you to be speaking directly to the people that will hear this like a week or so from now when it goes out to the world. You can talk to BIPOC people, you can talk to white people or anybody, and just give me your final thoughts. And Juliet, your mic is open, so you might as well go first.

SPEAKER_02 Okay. I would say to, I'll start with African American, I will start with everyone, BIPOC to start. Okay. You're beautiful just as you are. And in spite of what the world tells you, you are beautiful just as you are. And you don't And I've heard this before. There's a difference between fitting in and belonging. When you have to fit in that you have to be who you are to be a part. Belonging means that you don't have to adjust to who you are because who you are is acceptable. And I think we should also be okay with the fact that an environment is not healthy for us if we have to fit in. And so I would say that to BIPOC individuals and those who English is not their first language. I'll speak to my Afro-Caribbeans, my immigrants, my children of immigrants. You constantly have to switch between sitting in an English classroom and then coming home and having to speak a completely different language. Again, your accent doesn't, your accent or your use of English or your vernacular for that sense does not speak to your level of intelligence. You can have a bachelor's, a master's, a PhD certification or none at all and it doesn't make you less intelligent because of your accent or because of your word choice and so on and so forth. from an organizational perspective, I would say that leaders, regardless of their backgrounds, especially those who have the privilege to make a difference, I would encourage them to be more open to hearing from their employees. Employee resource groups are valuable, right? Seeing what kind of data you can gather from employee resource groups. looking at how you can improve interviewing processes, job descriptions, so they're not requiring people to really adjust and abbreviate who they are when they have to step into the workplace, and being very much intentional. You know, I know for us, you know, it's hundreds of years, right? It's generational, so we're exhausted. But I think the reality is what's most important, I think it was David who mentioned it, is really the love and humanity, right? And I think with those in places of privilege, no matter what your privilege is, being okay with the fact that you may not get it right the first time, but being genuine and intentional. You just trying to change things so you can retain a brand loyalty and customer loyalty and revenue, that's very short term. But when you're able to really say, I genuinely want to learn. I've grown up around people who speak one way or people whose names are a certain way and look a certain way. When you're really intentional about being willing to learn about what it's like to stand in someone else's shoes, I think that at least gives us the beginning steps in the right direction. of more cultural awareness and acceptance of how people show up without requiring them to abbreviate themselves to fit in. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_06 Thank you so much for that. And David, your final thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 Yes, my final thoughts. If I could talk to basically to everyone out there, I would just say, accept the way God made you. I'm a strong believer in God, and I know there are other people out there who believe in God. Just accept the way He made you. We can't change where we come from. Where we're from is where we're from. The way we talk is the way we talk. I also want to say it is a part of our uniqueness. It's what makes us unique. And sometimes we try to change that uniqueness because we want to conform to the masses. We want to conform to our environment, where we're going. And sometimes it's not, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. But again, we have to embrace what we, our differences. And that's how we learn about one another. And that's how we continually move forward in life. The more we try to fake things, it hinders us in making progress. Because again, when the next generation come, they're doing the same exact thing because we're teaching them those things and they're coming after us. And again, they're learning from us. So if they see that we're embracing everything, we're accepting our differences, they will then move on to accept their differences. And that's what I want to say in my closing.

SPEAKER_06 Thank you so much, David. And Myles, you're up.

SPEAKER_03 Those are two tough acts to follow. I was muted, but I was over here snapping the entire time. Thank you. Thank you, David. So once again, I agree with everything you all said. I guess the only thing I would add in addition to those amazing comments is, I guess I'll be real. So to be honest, I can't picture a world where code switching doesn't exist. To think it's such a part of human nature and who we are. But what I would like to see the world move towards is a state where code-switching becomes more voluntary, not seen as a source of survival. And for certain groups already in our society, that code-switching is voluntary. For groups who are in the dominant positions of privilege, when they code-switch, it's because they choose to code-switch. But if they don't want to code-switch, they don't have to code-switch. And there's very little consequences. So I would love to see us get to a point where groups from different backgrounds and different social statuses are treated more fairly. where they can each have that privilege to decide when they want to code switch.

SPEAKER_06 When they want to, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 The other thing I'll add too is that I think so much of our attention is on code switching in, I'll say, professional settings. So, you know, in the workplace, in the school place. And it makes sense because these are settings that have such a pivotal influence on our upward mobility and trajectory. But I think we should also pay attention to code switching in, you know, more intimate spaces, like with our family, with our friends. Because these are also spaces where certain folks can feel excluded or teased or culturally invalidated. They're not perceived as Black enough or Latino enough or Asian enough or authentic enough. So that also sets a standard for some folks to have to code switch just to maintain that sense of community with their own people who look just like them. So I think those are also spaces where we should consider the tone and the climate that we're setting and trying to also be we realize that as a diaspora, we are extremely diverse and there's not one type of blackness. Thank you. So just being more open-minded to, you know, someone, you know, comes from a different walk of life or didn't grow up in a black neighborhood or, you know, has a, you know, Creole or Haitian accent of, you know, being more accepted and open and appreciative of all our different shades and types and hues and sounds of blackness.

SPEAKER_06 Amen. Let me give y'all all a hand clap on that. Yay! That was awesome. Thank all three of you. Now, this is the portion of the show where my guests get to give their contact information, if they have a book, some event, anything you want to share with my audience. It's also going to be in the show notes. But this is your opportunity to put that out there. I know Dr. Juliette has a book. David has a podcast. So this is your time to shamelessly self-promote. And David, you can go first.

SPEAKER_04 Yes, so I am David, I have my own podcast called the Fraser Chronicles. I can be found on social media on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. One word, Fraser Chronicles. I'm also on all major podcasting platforms, IHeartRadio, Apple's Podcast, Spotify, just to name a few. I can be found there as well. I also have a YouTube channel where I do my live presentation. And again, Frasier Chronicle is just one word and it will pop up and you can follow me there.

SPEAKER_06 There you go. Thank you, David and Dr. Juliette. Oh Lord, I lost her again. All right, Miles, I'm going to go to you, so you can shamelessly self-promo you and whatever you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 Can you hear me now?

SPEAKER_06 I can. There you go. I don't know why that happens.

SPEAKER_02 I'm so sorry, Dr. Miles. Go ahead. Oh, no.

SPEAKER_03 I'll just say, feel free. As we publish new research and data on code switching, I try to publicize them on Twitter. So my handle is drderke. That's D-R-D-U-R-K-E-E.

SPEAKER_06 And Dr. Juliette?

SPEAKER_02 Yes, so you can visit my website at JulietNuriNelson.com. I'm sure you'll put the website in the show notes.

SPEAKER_06 Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_02 I don't have to spell it out. But yes, you can also find me on Instagram and Facebook, Juliet Nuri Nelson. I'm also on LinkedIn. Please mention this podcast so that I don't think you're a spammer or a marketer. if you add me on LinkedIn. But you can also find my book, Sharing My Lens of the College Experience. You can also see the different projects that I'm working on, Jun Nuri, Nuri Lens, which is my wooden eyewear collection, and Voisin, which is a Haitian Creole language learning management system that I'm actually working on. So visit my website and you can see everything.

SPEAKER_06 Yes, yes, yes. And yes, girl, them glasses are very, very nice, very nice. Dr. Juliette, Dr. Miles, David, I want to just thank you for your time, your observations, your opinions, your experiences, and for sharing them with me and my listeners. I appreciate you all so much for having me. We had a conversation about this podcast in April or May. And then I went on hiatus because I was burnt out. So I am so, so glad that you were all able to be here with me and to have this really important conversation with me. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 Thank you, Kristen, for the invitation.

SPEAKER_06 Oh, you're welcome. Now, this is for my listeners. I want all of you to make sure you look for the podcast episode posting, which will be in about a week. I have to edit it and do all kinds of other stuff to make it sound amazing. And all of my guest contact info, their websites, podcast info will be in the show notes. Make sure you head over to my website www.thecandidshop.com. That's Candid with a K. And check out some past episodes. Rate the show. Review the show. Drop me a comment. Whatever. Just check it out. I really appreciate it. It helps to get my numbers up. And I will be back in two weeks approximately with another candid discussion on domestic violence, or the new term is intimate partner violence. And I'm going to have a few very special guests on to have that very, very important conversation. So thank you all again. Thanks to you for joining me. And like I say at the end of every episode, I want you all to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it candid.

SPEAKER_00 And I'm a master of the dial. I got a different me for every situation. No matter black, white, old, or young, I can tune into your tongue. And nobody can tell which ones to read.