Embracing Love in All Its Forms: A Kandid Chat on Non-Traditional Relationships w/Gayle Lynn and Jess Lynn

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Hey, hey, hey. Podcast family. It is your girl, Kandidly Kristin, and this is the Kandid Shop, your number one destination for Kandid conversations. If you're new to the show, welcome and thanks for tuning in. If you're a returning listener, thanks for your support and welcome back. So today I am sitting down for a Kandid chat about the much misunderstood subject of non-traditional relationships. I'm joined for this discussion by two amazing ladies. My first guest is a relationship coach specializing in non-traditional partnerships and founder of Relationships Evolving, Gayle Lynn. My second guest is non-monogamy relationship coach, licensed therapist and founder of both and coaching, Jess Lynn. No relation. Welcome, welcome, welcome, ladies, to the Kandid Shop.

GAYLE LYNN

Oh, thank you for having me Absolutely.

JESS LYNN

Thank you so much.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

I've been looking forward to this chat for a while, so let's just get into it, and I think I'd like to start by trying to define what non-traditional relationships are, and so I poked around Google and I found a general definition that went a little something like this Non-traditional relationships can be polyamory or polyfidelity, polygamy, consensual, non-monogamy, open relationships, swinging and relationship anarchy, and I had never heard that before, and these are all forms of non-traditional relationships. So do you, ladies, think that is an accurate definition or would you add anything to it, Jess?

JESS LYNN: 

I wouldn't say it's an inaccurate definition and I think that there's um, there's a lot of um, there's some crossover there in terms of like, um, things that can be used similarly, I guess. So um, like in general, I think the term non-traditional relationships or non-monogamy is like kind of the umbrella, um, and then a bunch of those things go underneath, so like consensual non-monogamy, non-monogamy, ethical non-monogamy, all the same thing, and those other things are typically like underneath the umbrella per se.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

And Gayle anything to add or subtract from that kind of really broad definition?

GAYLE LYNN: 

Yeah, no, it's a great start, because what it does is it just defines all the different ways that you can have a non-traditional relationship, because there's so many different ways that you can form a relationship between two people, and so that's. It's a good start, okay.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

All right Now, before we get into the conversation, I'd like it if each of you could share a little bit about your background and the why of why you became a non-traditional or non-monogamous relationship. Coach and Gayle, you can go first. This is the quick version.

GAYLE LYNN:

The quick version is my husband came to me wanting to have sex with somebody else and it pretty much rocked my world because at the time, you know, we were deep into the church. So you know the programming was one man, one wife for the rest of your life.

GAYLE LYNN: 

And so it began to be something that spiraled, almost like an awakening for me into what was really going on in my life and what was going on around us and why he was approaching me. And you know, basically he he had never had sex with anybody else and he was just like at this time in his life, in his forties, and he's like what would it be like to be with another woman? And that's really where the conversation started to go. And so it began a process of really unraveling what our beliefs are and what do we really believe, and so it really started us down that journey and then being able to experience opening our relationship, being polyamorous We've been swingers, We've kind of tapped into all of them in a way. So just having that experience and you know, like I help out with a lifestyle club that's kind of one of the fun things that I get to do on the side of relationship coaching, because it's just all like minded people right.

GAYLE LYNN:

That that were around and stuff like that. So I'm like they're, they're coached down there and so that's kind of fun. But yeah, so that's. That's because I traveled the path and there were so many different things that we came against you know, the communication issues, the jealousy all those things and we had to just begin tackling them and we didn't have anybody that would that was there for us. You know, I had no idea that there were coaches out there that could do it. All I knew is I I've been down the path and I could definitely help others go down this path in a much easier, fluid way than what we did, right.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Thank you and Jess.

JESS LYNN: 

Yeah, it's funny, I love listening to other non-monogamous folk stories about this because they're all so similar in a way and yet different. So my kind of quick version of this is a little bit kind of the reverse of what Gayle just said, in that I was the one that brought this to my husband and for me it was really just, you know, just kind of coming across things on you know the interwebs, as it were, and just reading more and more about, as Gayle was saying, like what kind of programming we have around relationships, where that comes from, and I just sort of like started examining, like, do I do what I do and want what I want, believe what I believe because I truly believe that myself, or is that just me? Want believe what I believe because I truly believe that myself, or is that just me?

JESS LYNN: 

um, you know, sort of trying to like play like the good girl if you will and like fulfill what, um, you know, societal expectations there are of me. And so I kind of like took a look back at my history of relationships. Um, I was definitely what one would call like a serial monogamist from probably 14, 15 until I met my husband. I was constantly in a relationship. All monogamists committed long-term relationships, but one after another after another, and I just it never made any sense to me why someone would think that just because I like moved on from a relationship to another, because I like moved on from a relationship to another, that I somehow like ceased to love or care about the person that I had been with, or that I must not have really loved them or something like that.

JESS LYNN: 

So, yeah, I just kind of started reading some stuff and brought it to my husband and part of that also was for me exploring my sexuality as a queer woman, and so that all kind of wrapped up and, yeah, similar thing, right, we started trying to figure stuff out, have conversations, do some reading and listen to podcasts and all that stuff. And you know, there there are people out there and yet there's only so much out there, right? I think that there's a ton of. I mean, they're still lacking, I would say, in terms of like, relationship, like couples, therapists and and such. For monogamous folks as well.

JESS LYNN: 

The couples thing is hard, but I think in this realm, like there's so fewer resources and similarly like to what Gayle said, I just feel, like you know, with my background as a therapist and a social worker, I've worked with all kinds of people in working with anyone is just the validation of like, having someone feel seen regardless of like what that means, whatever they're going through, whoever they are, whatever identity, and so that kind of all just kind of mashed together with me between my background as a therapist and then, you know, living this myself and and just realizing, like you, so much of this is about just recognizing people for who they are and that they exist and the way they exist in the world is valid and beautiful, and hoping that I could help some people, especially newbies, like getting into this kind of, you know, navigate this in a little bit smoother of a way than I did with little resources.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

So, yeah, Well, thank you both for that and thank you for what you do, because that's a great segue into I wanted to try to find. I'm a stats person, I love data, and I found a February 2023 YouGov poll about relationships and it said, surprisingly, 55% of Americans still prefer a completely monogamous relationship, but 34% of folks said their ideal relationship is something other than complete monogamy, and people under 45 are far more likely than those older than 45 to be interested in an other than completely monogamous relationship, wherever that falls on the spectrum, I guess. So my question to you guys is why or what do you think the reason or reasons are that more people are kind of leaning into non-traditional or non-monogamous relationships, and either one of you can go first and take that I'll take that one at least to begin.

GAYLE LYNN: 

And Jess, well, I'm sure she's really good at picking up and expanding too. Um, so you know, for me, I see. Well, first of all those are statistics where people are actually telling what maybe more people are actually saying where they're actually at as far as the relationship goes.

GAYLE LYNN:

I think a lot of this has been happening. It's just been so shunned upon that people were not willing to speak out. So, you know, people might be monogamous, but how many out of those monogamous people are cheating, right, you know, and not being ethical about what's really going on? And so what we're trying to say is you know, there's a way to do this and actually be ethical in it and create a lot more possibilities in your relationship for love, expansion, joy, you know, and learning about yourself, because you also have the triggers of, like jealousy and things not always working out, but those are great opportunities.

GAYLE LYNN: 

So for me, I see the younger generation actually taking everything just a little step forward, like they're being more authentic with who they are, because we're teaching them to be more authentic when before it was like you know, you got to be this good little boy and girl. This is the way you know. You know girls should behave. Guys, you know you're not supposed to cry. You know all of those different things that are. The different generations have grown up and each generation has a layer of that that's been stripped off, and so that's where I see like the younger generation actually embracing the idea because it makes sense to them.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN

Right.

GAYLE LYNN: 

And so things are evolving there slowly, and the more you know celebrities that come out that they have open relationships, then more people are worth coming forward, you know, and talking about it, I mean it's fascinating for me, like like I'm down at this lifestyle club and I can't tell you every weekend we have brand new people who have just dipping their toes in to find out what this world is all about. Just dipping their toes in to find out what this world is all about. And so it is. It's growing and I think it's going to get to that point where it grows really, you know, exponentially.

JESS LYNN: 

And it's going to be more of a normative thing and Jess any thoughts, comments, expansion yeah, no, I think so much of what Gayle is saying makes sense. I mean, of course, I think that you know not to paint like a broad brush, but I think in general there is something to you know, norms and expectations and stuff, generationally. Right Not to say that like every single member of X generation acts or thinks this way, but I think there is, you know there's, there are commonalities, and so I myself I'm a millennial and I think that in my generation it's definitely more common. I find a lot of people my age ish and then younger Even, I think people just the reality is and this is funny, I think about this a lot when you know I'm not, for example, like fully out out to my grandmother just because she worries a lot and I don't need her to worry about anything else, but she essentially, you know I was going to Spain with one of my other partners and she kind of said I think you're going with a man and that's why you don't want to tell me.

JESS LYNN: 

But you know what, like, you do whatever you want, I just don't want to hear about it because I don't want to worry. So like even with my 85 year old grandmother.

JESS LYNN: 

like she recognized, like she, she recognizes that my husband and I are not just with each other, right, like no one's ever told her this, like this is not you know, but I think you know. This is not a new concept at all.

JESS LYNN: 

And I think we can. You know, in many ways, like this is akin to, you know, the queer community, the trans community, like these people have been doing what we are doing for eons. This is not like a new idea. It's just that a there's more people willing to speak out. As you know, Gayle was saying like people, more people willing to say like, okay, you know, I, I will go to the club once, or I will go, um, you know, get on the dating app or whatever, and talk to some people, check this out in a way that feels more free. And I also think that you know, in addition to more people genuinely like, maybe seeking this out, or like at least seeking out information about it, people then are being more open about it, potentially, than they were before.

JESS LYNN: 

So you know, this is not like a, you know it's not a, a revolutionary idea it's just that you know we're talking about it more and and there's so many, um, so many people that have, you know, and I'm sure that if I like had a conversation with my grandmother or my parents you know they are not there the concept of swinging is not new to them, you know those kind of things.

JESS LYNN: 

It's just it's, I think it's getting a little more education about it and you know, people like Gayle and myself trying to, you know, just like, put the word out there and say like hey, this is not like that odd of a thing. It may be unconventional is the word I like to use because it's, it's not, you know, traditional Exactly the name of this episode, you know. But you know, I think people are in general, especially as generation, younger and younger generations are leaning more into this idea of like authenticity and living their truth and being less willing to just take what society or older generations or government or whomever says like they should do with their lives.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Right and that I think that we're seeing that in younger generations in a bunch of different areas, not just relationships they're really leaning into their authentic selves and living their life in by their terms, not anybody else's, live in their life in by their terms, not anybody else's. So I wanted to ask, because I know there's a bunch of misconceptions, misunderstandings swirling around out there about a non-traditional relationship style. So what are some of the more common ones, and if each of you could kind of not debunk them, but kind of I always want to put out information and dispel misinformation.

GAYLE LYNN: 

So Gayle Okay, sure, yeah, well, I guess do you have something specific that you're looking at?

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Well, I think the most common thing that I hear when we're talking about polyamory or swinging is that it's all about the sex. You just want to have sex with a bunch of different people. Is that it's all about the sex?

GAYLE LYNN: 

You just want to have sex with a bunch of different people. Okay, so that can be one way. I mean, that is what some people do, but it's not necessarily, especially in polyamory, it isn't. So let's start. Let's kind of start from the top the bigger umbrella, which is basically saying an open relationship. Would you agree with that, Jess?

JESS LYNN: 

Yeah, I think open relationship and like non-monogamy or non-traditional are usually.

GAYLE LYNN: 

They're pretty synonymous in a way, and so you know, basically you're just going to be agreeing that you know you guys are going to be seeing other people in some form or another. And that's where you guys get the couple actually gets to start deciding what it's going to look like. So you can go anywhere from choosing to swing where you're going to do it together, right, and sometimes that is just purely for the sex and for pleasure there. They don't want to form an emotional attachment, like there will be agreements like no kissing, no fluid swapping, like it can be really defined down. However, the couple feels comfortable with what they want to do. So so that one is it's a little bit more about the sex and now an open relationship, typically like if a husband and wife open it up and they don't want to go swinging, they want to do it separate, right. So they're going to start maybe seeing other people or dating other people. And again it becomes what, what are your agreements? What do you guys want to do? It's not full on, you know, go play, because what they're trying to do is they're still trying to to honor the primary relationship. Okay, so that might be.

GAYLE LYNN: 

You know, husband goes on a date with a girl, like once a week, or it could be once a month, or it could be once a quarter, like it just really depends on what works for everybody else. And typically with that you know they're wanting not quite as much of an emotional attachment. But, and so some people will be like, well, you can't date the same person more than once, you know. So there's a lot of that, that's, you know. So it's really it comes down to you've got to design it for yourself.

GAYLE LYNN: 

But then once you start getting into like polyamory, that's when you're starting to make more of a connection, an emotional connection, because it's, if you break it down, it's polyamory, so many loves. And so that is where you have this capacity, where you are loving more than one person and there's often an agreement between everybody who's involved in the relationship. Is it going to be, you know, just the four of you, nobody else beside that, or can it expand into more? So you can see there's so many ways you can define it, um, but none of them are wrong.

GAYLE LYNN: 

That's, you know, people look at it and they judge it for something and it's like you don't understand.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

It can be anything so what I'm really hearing is like the basis of all of it is really healthy communication between the couple that's looking into a non-traditional relationship, honest, healthy communication and some boundary setting, I guess, and how they define what it looks like for them.

GAYLE LYNN: 

Yeah, absolutely, and the communication is key. That's where I can tell you what we went three, four hours a day. Sometimes it became a part-time job and that's why. That's why I'm like really big on okay, let's get our communication down so we can really know where we're going with this okay, now, yeah, I would just add to that that, you know, I think that's definitely one of the bigger ones.

JESS LYNN:

um, you know, um, as you said, kristin, that it's all about sex, and, like, my reaction to that is always either, first of all, maybe it is all about sex, and so what? Why is that a bad thing? Um, right, like, why is this a bad thing for people to want to have different experiences, to want to experience pleasure? Like that's not an issue, um, and then, secondarily, like I think many people, um, and not that this is a problem if this isn't part of the dynamic. But I think, you know, I've I've been to some lifestyle clubs. One of my partners came into nominogamy through swinging and, and most of the time they wanted to have, like some kind of like conversation or, you know, like connection, maybe not in like a romantic way, or maybe not even in a like friends that we hang out outside of here kind of way. But you know, I think that, like, all of this is about human connection, and sometimes that human connection is sex, and why do we need to shame people for that? Like, what is the issue?

GAYLE LYNN:

As long as everyone's consenting adults, then, yeah, and and to it comes down to like the, the person, like some people need an emotional connection, so they're actually going to need to form that before they even want to have sex, or it's just not there for them. And then there's other other people who can just like jump in and have sex you know, so it's really depending on the person where they want to go with everything.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

So how do you, if you've chosen a non-traditional relationship lifestyle, navigate all the societal and cultural pressures that I'm sure come up for you on a day-to-day basis? How can, how do you do that?

JESS LYNN: 

with other people.

JESS LYNN:

Yeah well, sometimes with great difficulty and sometimes not. You know, I definitely don't want to paint like a, you know, entirely negative picture. I would be I would be dishonest if I said that. You know I would be I would be dishonest if I said that. You know, like everyone in my life, for example, has like accepted this with open arms and is jumping for joy and like thinks this is the best thing ever. Like a lot of people are very supportive of me and us and and some of my older family members not so much. And how do you navigate? I mean, it's hard.

JESS LYNN:

I think everybody has to kind of decide and as a, an individual human in this lifestyle, whether or not you want to come out, so to speak, or or share about this with other people in your life or not. You know, obviously here Gayle and I are talking to you, so it's a little bit more obvious. But I think something I've learned along the way is I've always been like an open book type person, like I've never had a concern about, like what people think about me, sharing, you know, my emotions, opinions, whatever. But for me there has come points where, with certain people, either in my family or like societally. I just I get to choose what I'm willing to, basically what I'm willing to to hold space for right. So if I want to discuss this with people and I'm willing to hear what they have to say, even if I don't agree with them, then that's fine. And if there are certain people or spaces in which I don't feel like that, that is something I have like the mental or emotional energy for right now, then they don't have to right. It is hard, people will, people make all kinds of assumptions or judge people. You know, bring morality into this a lot, which I I can, I understand, I can empathize with where they're coming from, and yet it very much confuses me because, you know, I'm pretty sure that two, three, four people in a relationship get to decide if what they're doing works for them or not. But you know, perhaps that's a new concept, but yeah, I I think there's a lot and so I think it does help to find other people, communities, spaces that people are not going to judge um as much, or or at least you'll be met with more of an open mind and I will say, to be fair, I have been pleasantly surprised at some of the reactions that I've gotten like from strangers whether that's like, I don't know.

JESS LYNN: 

I went to get pedicure for Pride Month and got the polyamorous flag colors and the nail tech asked me why these colors? And I told her and she was totally fine and cool. I've mentioned things casually to like my, the person who waxes my eyebrows, or like questioner and target, um, saying like, using the word partners, plural, things like that, and, and surprisingly I have gotten a lot of people be, be, like huh, oh, that's cool. So I just try very hard to like in my brain like weigh those. You know, yes, there are going to always be people on the internet, people in your family, people in the neighborhood, that don't get it, don't want to get it, don't want to understand, aren't going to have open minds, and there are a lot of people who, given the chance, are willing to hear about things or at minimum, you know, meet you with mutual respect, just as a human.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Awesome.

GAYLE LYNN: 

Yeah, you know, I totally get it, Jess, because this, I mean, it was such a process even for me that there were days I'm just like, can I do this? Can I do this? You know, especially coming out as a coach doing it, it brought it to another level, right. But even before that, you know, when my husband and I would introduce it or like mention it to my sister, or we even told our kids, like every time we were able to do that, it was like another little piece for us to feel a little bit more freer about who we were and what we were doing. And and then you just have to be okay. If somebody doesn't agree with it, it's only because they haven't unraveled all of those shame pieces that we ended up unraveling as we worked through this and the belief systems. They just haven't had the opportunity to do it. However, when you tell somebody, that's like a little seed that's planted, that gives them an opportunity to think about it and to maybe heal something in their life.

GAYLE LYNN: 

So do either of you think that, being in a non-traditional relationship requires a different set of skills or mindset compared to a traditional, all monogamous relationship. Yeah, I would say there's different skills there, and the big one is being communication. And you know, a lot of times in a monogamous relationship you can let a lot of things slide Well. When you're in this kind of, when you have multiple partners and different personalities that are all at play at once, it brings up a lot more personalities that are all at play at once, it brings up a lot more. And so that skill of communicating effectively and reflecting back and understanding what's going on is it becomes heightened. And I can tell you, I can almost spot somebody who might be in a non-traditional relationship because of the way they communicate with each other. They're just so much more open and honest and willing to tell their truth than other people who just haven't learned that.

JESS LYNN: 

Yeah.

JESS LYNN: 

I mean that's a, I think for me that's a hard question. I think it really is kind of like the skills themselves are the same, like on a base level right, but there's just like a heightened need for things. I mean like ideally right People who are monogamous do communicate right At a high level, we would hope. But, as Gayle said, like it is easier, not because not necessarily because people don't care about their partner or something like that, but it is easier to not address everything Right, because there's only one other person, so it's you and them, and if they don't bring it up and you don't bring it up, you know it ain't getting brought up.

JESS LYNN: 

But when you have you know three, four, however many people that you need to like be transparent with and check in with people about, or check in with different people about different things, then you know things get brought up.

JESS LYNN: 

They have to be, otherwise somebody eventually is gonna, you know, have their feelings hurt or feel like they're being ignored or feel like their needs aren't being met.

JESS LYNN: 

Uh, so I think that you know there's, I do think and I've said this to many people like I think, a lot of, um, there are a lot of resources out there, whether it's like resources from coaches like Gayle and myself, or books, podcasts, etc. I think there are a lot of things that monogamous couples could benefit from hearing, whether that's about communication, attachment styles, bids for connection, how to show up for your partner, like. I think that the skills maybe are like theoretically the same, but it's kind of like you're almost forced in a way, to have a to like, have a heightened level of certain things in order to do this in like a way that feels healthy. I think if you didn't, you could still be doing it, but it wouldn't be feeling very good to people. So, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, a lot of talking and then some more talking, and then talk about our feelings and then also our emotions, and you know, it's just like a thing.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN:

So that's actually a really great segue, because I'm thinking about a couple or however many people in a non-traditional relationship and how they navigate those more complex emotions. You talked about a little bit about jealousy earlier insecurity, so how does that work in a non-traditional relationship? Because I can see jealousy, at least for me, as being a huge thing.

JESS LYNN:

Yeah, so I can speak to this and then, Gayle, absolutely Share your thoughts. So, yeah, I mean, I think another sometimes, uh, what do you call a misconception, as we're talking about, that people have? Is that either like people who are in non-monogamous, non-traditional relationships like don't experience jealousy, like we're somehow immune, uh, or that we we do when it's this like horrible, horrific thing and we just shove it down or something uh. So, uh, in case anyone wondered that we do experience jealousy, um, and I think it's for me, like this is a piece where I like use my my clinical background is like it it's about and I try to, you know, do this for myself with sometimes it's harder than other times and also teach other people that there's nothing wrong with feeling jealousy. It's a human emotion, just like any other human emotion. It's a chemical reaction in your body, right, and it's all. We can't control our emotions, any of them. Or else, like I would not have a job as a therapist, right? People would just say I can't control our emotions, any of them. Or else, like I would not have a job as a therapist, right? People would just say I don't want to be sad anymore and then stop being sad.

JESS LYNN: 

So I think I try to reframe it as like okay, this feeling that feels like jealousy is coming up for me around X, what is it telling me? What is going on? What is it telling me, like, what is going on, like, what is the story I'm telling myself about this? And what is that like tell me in terms of, like, what needs I might have that aren't being met. So, like, if I'm jealous that I'm, if my husband goes on a date and comes home and tells me about this woman he went out with and I'm feeling jealousy around something, whether that's like he shows me a picture and her looks, or if I'm feeling jealous about the time they spent together or what they did together, that's probably just cluing me into like, hey, there's this. You're feeling some kind of way about this. There's nothing you can do about the feeling. So what are we going to do about our reaction? So we could just shove it down, and I'm not going to lie and say I've never done that, but really it's about, hey, like when you said X, y, z about this person you went out with, I felt this way. I'm wondering, like do you feel like maybe you and I could have some like intentional date night time soon. I think maybe I'm feeling a little bit left out, or I'm feeling a little bit like our physical intimacy has been lacking lately, or whatever it is. Just that you know it's, it's okay.

JESS LYNN: 

Sometimes we don't want to admit to things that we classify as, like, negative feelings. I personally don't believe that that's a thing. I think feelings are just feelings, emotions are just emotions and it's about the reaction. And so what do you do with that thing? Do you communicate it to your partner? If so, how and like what space can we open up from there to like get your needs met and their needs met? So, but yeah, I mean, I've, absolutely.

JESS LYNN: 

I had one um experience where I was at home, uh, with my one of my partners and we're just watching a movie on the couch and my husband is out on a date, and at some point I don't know why I just started feeling some kind of way. And now I'm sitting on the couch at my house crying to my partner that I'm jealous of something that I don't know, because my husband's out with this woman and he's like this is fine, like you're allowed to have emotions, and I'm like this is such a weird situation, um, but it's fine and like he's able to hold space for that for me, so that I could hold space for that for me, and so then when my husband came home, we could talk about it. It's not always that perfect and magical, but but you know it happens and it's okay.

GAYLE LYNN: 

Yeah, it's really kind of becoming aware of of what it is, because you know, like in a monogamous relationship there's jealousy that it might be, or more like envy type kind of attitudes of your spouse is doing something that you want to do, or you're you're thinking that they're doing something that's way more fun and you want to be doing the same thing. Right, you might see that a little bit, you see it in monogamy, but what happens is when you bring it in and it has to do with your another person, it becomes very much more elevated because it's going to trigger a lot more in you. It's going to start triggering probably some kind of safety and security that you know somebody might take your spouse and I'm not going to have my safety and security or feeling abandoned, you know. So it's really starting to touch on these different points that are just an opportunity really for you to feel it and it's not, it's not a bad thing. These are actually really really good things to have happen, because you start to gain this awareness that that it's happening within you.

GAYLE LYNN: 

You're starting to feel it and then this and this is what we do as coaches is we teach you how to be with that, how to feel that, how to let that emotion go through and just recognizing it for what it is, and so it actually becomes a very good start to recognize that and understand it. And people oftentimes will come for coaching because they want to get rid of jealousy. They just like I want to be, I want to have compersion. I don't want jealousy, I just want it out of my life and you may be able to start. It's never going to be out of my life and you may be able to start. It's never going to be out of your life, right, but you may be able to start understanding and being able to understand your reaction of what's going on, which makes it a whole lot better.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Yeah, so I have a question for each of you, because, Jess, you mentioned that you were queer, or did I not hear you say that? So my question is how do each of you, as coaches, incorporate diversity, intersectionality, inclusivity in your, in your practice, when you're working with clients in a non-traditional relationship lifestyle? And, yes, you can go first?

JESS LYNN: 

yeah, sure, uh. So this is, uh, I appreciate you asking this question because it's very important, um, and something important to me, uh, as you know, as a queer person and also as a social worker, um, by background. So, yeah, I mean, I think, one big piece, obviously, and you know, when we talk about diversity, relationship or get into these types of relationships, structures, because they want to explore their sexuality, and my husband as well is that there's so much behind like bisexual erasure in like society as a whole and in the queer community, and you know there are. Just because a person or a setting or a coach or whatever is non monogamous or in a non-traditional relationship setting, doesn't mean that they can't still have biases around these things. And so I think it's important to me to always, you know, check in with people, like when I get new clients, like you know, to the extent that they're comfortable telling me like what is your, how do you identify, what's your sexual orientation, what does that look like to you? Right Cause I don't want to be speaking to you know, a male identifying person and just assuming that all of his partners are female, right, or or things like that. So that's one big piece. And then the other thing I'll just say briefly, and I could talk about this forever, but a big thing I'll say that I have learned very fairly recently is this idea around a lot of times what I do, you'll notice, I believe, in my bio hopefully I changed the one I sent to you, but I used to kind of label myself as an ethical, non-monogamous coach and I have since learned a lot around, you know, this idea of like.

JESS LYNN: 

Why do we put the word ethical in front? So we really put it there because we want to distinguish it from cheating, right, like. We understand that as the definition being non-monogamous, technically cheating could like be, you know, twisted into that. But I'm pretty sure that people understand, like, when we are talking about non-monog, my title from like the content I share because it can insinuate in a way that non-monogamy before we called it that.

JESS LYNN:

So if we go back to in trying to like decolonize these concepts, so many of um, historically, uh, polyamorous or whatever word we want to use, like open relationship type, um, cultures, so many of those cultures are, um, you know, non-white individuals, and so to place this like ethically, eth, ethically, ethically, it kind of can insinuate that the word that non-monogamy in general is like oh, the way we do it is ethical, but the way that people did it for centuries is not right, and that, specifically, is targeting and talking about minority populations, and so that's another like thing. Like I said I could talk about forever, but that's something that I recently. Like I said I could talk about forever, but that's something that I recently have, you know, taken some education on myself around to make sure that like I'm not spreading you know these really like your take, Jess, especially on the ethical piece.

GAYLE LYNN:

You know, because I get that when you start calling it that it's, it does get into a space of almost it has a judgment around it or better than this or that and stuff like that.

GAYLE LYNN: 

So I do like your viewpoint on that, Jess. I think that's that's really good. But you know, for me, being a coach, like anybody that I take in, I'm there to be a safe space for them, which means they get to be whoever they want to be. Whoever they're becoming, I am there to hold that space for them to be able to come and feel very comfortable with me. So, you know, making sure that they do feel included in who they are and honored for who they are and honored for the journey that they're on and what they're taking, is super important for me.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

So what advice would each of you give to someone who is listening to this episode and who is considering exploring a non-traditional relationship for the first time? Best piece of advice I take it slow.

GAYLE LYNN: 

Right, Take it slow and a lot of curiosity around it. You know a lot of people will kind of want to get into it and they want to jump the gun and, just, you know, go out the door and have some sex and you know, do that. But there's a lot to consider there and so just take your time. It's, it's not a race, Right?

JESS LYNN: 

Yeah, I would definitely say that's probably like I would think and hope that that's most coaches in this realms kind of advice, because you know I wouldn't, I can't say that, I didn't do that at all. Or you know, I think it's so easy when we finally feel like we have this like lease on life, so to speak, like okay, I can just like I can do the thing. I had this conversation with my partner they're open to it and I'm going to go whatever. Like Gayle said, go have the sex. They're open to it and I'm going to go whatever. Like Gayle said go have the sex, go find a partner, go date women, whatever. And it's so easy to get lost in that because once you, you know, of course, barring not great experiences when you have a good, positive experience there in that space there's so much that like that feels like freeing and authentic and you're living your truth and all this stuff.

JESS LYNN: 

And sometimes we can easily rush to the point where we haven't really talked about relationship agreements or we really haven't discussed, at least generally, some of the what ifs or things that can come up and maybe then if this is something that you're exploring separately, we don't know, like, what our partner would say or think in a certain situation, and I think it's also easy to like find, especially if you find someone who, like, has been in the lifestyle for a long time. It's easy to assume that, like, oh, they must know what they're doing Right. And I will just say that we, from personal experience, we should just not make assumptions about those things. Right, yeah, that was that was my first. My first poly relationship drama was just that, you know, oh, I think this person, like, must know what they're doing Right, and so if they think this is okay, it must be okay, right?

JESS LYNN: 

So I think you know there's no need to rush and there's no need to like it's okay, you're going to feel it, but we don't have to make assumptions about like, oh, wow, I'm so new, therefore, I don't know anything, or no one's going to want to go on a date with me or hook up with me or whatever. This is all just about humans and we're all at that same level as humans. And sure, some people have maybe been in the lifestyle for longer, had relationships or what have you. But I think one of the most important things is to just try your best and you're not going to be perfect, to not judge yourself. Like, just let yourself explore things, just let yourself, you know whatever that is listening to this podcast, for example, other podcasts, reading articles, working with a coach like, just let yourself exist as you are, like in that space and you'll figure it out. You will figure it out one way or the other.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Now we've talked primarily about couples and I wanted to ask you what if you are a single individual who is interested in entering a non-traditional relationship with a couple? How is that? What kind of advice would you give to that individual? This is not a couple, this is just a person who's, like I'm really interested in maybe you know entering into a non-traditional relationship with a couple. Is the advice any different?

GAYLE LYNN: 

No, the advice really isn't any different for me. Jess might have some thoughts on it. Besides, you know now you're dealing with three people, and so it's just again the communication and understanding. You know where and what you really want to create in the relationship. You know, and what does that look like. You know how much time who plays with who.

GAYLE LYNN:

You know all those kind of, the kinds of things that you, you can start getting into. So again, it just becomes communication and what do we want to create? You get to create whatever you want. It doesn't have to look any specific way.

JESS LYNN: 

Yeah, I think, I think that's good. I think that I agree that, like, the advice itself isn't different in terms of like, not rushing and letting yourself be and all those kind of things. I think there are individuals and I've worked with some who are what we would consider solo polyamorous, meaning they have multiple romantic and or sexual relationships without the desire to have what we would call like a primary partner or a nesting partner, someone they live with, and that's awesome. There are people who, as you said, Kristin  like, want to enter a dynamic with a couple, I think in terms of, you know, the the advice being the same in terms of like, not rushing.

JESS LYNN: 

I think another important thing around not rushing as an individual wanting to join a couple is just to not rush in terms of, okay, I want to be with a couple. This couple wants to bring you know, wants to have this experience with another single person. Let's just jump in and do that. I really think it's important to you know, I think are there some people out there that give us all a bad rep? Yes, absolutely, just as there are monogamous people who are toxic you know there are non-monogamous people who are toxic.

JESS LYNN:

And I think, as a single individual joining an already established relationship, I would say that the don't rushing piece speaks more to you. Know, cultivate a friendship, whatever. You know kind of connection you're looking for with both of those people, right? Don't just I don't know what the right word like settle or like force yourself. You know you really connect with the husband, but you haven't had much time alone. You know you really connect with the husband, but you haven't had much time alone. You know, just, don't rush in that like, keep, hold the boundaries that you have for you and express what you need. Right, and like Gayle said, it can look like whatever you want. And and that's the beautiful thing is like you get to say you know, this is what feels comfortable for me.

JESS LYNN: 

And you know, just like with any other form of relationship, it's possible that that those things might not align. You know, maybe the couple only wants to play with you together and maybe you would like to have some sort of individual time as well, and they're not open to that. That's okay, but we both get. You know, you get to decide if that's something you want to move forward with. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of solo people. And you know you mentioned relationship anarchy in the beginning. That's what relationship anarchy is all about, you know, just not having this concept of like rules or being beholden to someone asking permission for things and just kind of you know doing what you want. So yeah, I mean same advice.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN

Just, you know, look out for you and you know, take your time with it. So, ladies, what as non-traditional or non-monogamous relationship coaches? How do you hope to impact this area? You know, long term, what are your goals and aspirations?

GAYLE LYNN:

You know, for me, I just want people to really live and enjoy their lives, and if this is something that can add to their lives, then why not? You know, and another reason that you know I'm out here Jess is out here, we're always talking about this is because we want people to know that it's okay, it's not a bad thing, it's it's. It's really where you want to start unpacking your life and what you want to believe, and then you get to begin to. You know, like I said, add to your life and live how you authentically want to live. And for me, that's what I want. I just I want people to, you know, live their joy.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Nice and Jess.

JESS LYNN: 

Yeah, I would agree with all of that, and I think for me, a big piece of this is, you know, I guess I shouldn't say no one, but you know, I don't think anyone is out here who is practicing all of this honestly and ethically, trying to like convert people or, you know, suggest that non-monogamy or polyamory or open relationship or whatever words like feel right to you is like inherently better than monogamy.

JESS LYNN: 

That's not at all what anyone's trying to say.

JESS LYNN: 

I think you know to Gayle's point about like just wanting people to just live their lives the way they want to live their lives, I think you know I'm, I have friends and family members who are, you know, very, very happy over, joyously so in monogamous relationships, and I love that for them and if that is what makes them happy, then that's what they should do.

JESS LYNN: 

And I think my big thing is like just trying to like share information, like put a face or a voice to to what this really looks like, you know, in real life, and and just for these relationship structures to be seen as equally valid as monogamy. That's all I'm after. You know, I'm not trying to say it's better, worse or otherwise. I think people can do both non-traditional and traditional relationships and in very healthy, positive ways and not so healthy ways, and I don't think that that's inherent to the structure itself. And so, yeah, I just I'm trying my best to, you know, kind of get out there, talk about this stuff, reduce a stigma and help people to live what they're like relationship dreams, look like, whatever that means.

GAYLE LYNN: 

Yeah, you know, Jess, you have a really good point when you say all relationships are equal. And I always tell people this Every pathway is sacred, all relationships are equal, and I always tell people this every pathway is sacred. It's just are you choosing the pathway, or is the pathway being chosen for you Because that's just what you're expected to do, and so for me it's like, if you want to be on a monogamous pathway, that's sacred because you're going very deep with that person, but is that what you're choosing? So, really, look, what am I choosing? What? What kind of relationship would I really want to choose and not be chosen for me?

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Yes, I love both of your answers, and both of you are giving people resources, someone to reach out to, um, where a lot of that hasn't existed in the past, or at least not that I'm aware of. So, to that point, I'd like each of you to share how my listeners can connect with you, and, Gayle, you can go first.

GAYLE LYNN: 

Okay, so my website is relationshipsevolving.com, so just think relationships are always evolving, so you can go on there and you can find some more information. You can book just a no cost initial consultation and we can connect with each other, find out if, for each other's jam, you know, because you want to feel comfortable with the person you're working with, yeah, and stuff, because it is it's a very vulnerable space, so that that piece is very important. So that's one way to do it. Uh, you can also find me. I am on Facebook. Relationships evolving, um, same with Instagram, so you can kind of I'm not on social media a ton, but the best way to get me is through the website and just book a call.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Got it and Jess.

JESS LYNN: 

Yeah, so I do have a website. It's a baby website, but there will be more coming, so it's both and coaching.com B-O-T-H-A-N-D, coaching.com, and so that is in the works. More so, but you can contact. You can contact me through there or email me through there, and then I would say, probably my, my biggest platform right now is on Facebook. I do have a private group coming up on like 200 members now I think. So lots of people in this group that like get it. There's people you know from anywhere, from like I'm potentially curious in this too. I've been doing this for a decade. Uh, so that's called non-monogamous newbies, uh, and then if you search it, I promise it will come up. There's no other group by that name. And, uh, same on Instagram. It's uh, at non monogamous underscore newbies. And yeah, that's like a good way to like get a feel for kind of me and you know what it is I do. And, same as Gayle, you know you can book a free console call and all that kind of stuff because, like she said, we want you to feel comfy, you know, and sharing all this stuff with us. So, yeah, definitely hit me up. I'd love to chat with anyone

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Nice. Well, ladies, thank you both for your time, your observations, your sharing and vulnerability and authenticity and telling your stories, and thank you for what you do in the relationship coaching space, because there's going to be, I foresee, a bigger need for non-traditional lifestyles or relationship coaches. As you know, we move further and further down the line as people come of age and starting to recognize that there's more than one way to skin a cat. So thank you

GAYLE LYNN: 

 Thank you, Kristin, I think it was fun.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: 

Absolutely, thank you. So, guys, both Gayle and Justice Contact Info, their website links will be in the show notes and I don't want you guys to forget to visit my website at wwwthekandidshop.com  candid with a k, listen to an episode or four, drop me a review and share the show with your friends, and until the next time we meet, I want everyone to keep it safe, keep it healthy and keep it Kandid. Thank you,