EMOTIONAL ROLLERCOASTER! A Kandid Chat w/ Dr. Ed Daube ”The Emotions Dr”

Kandidly Kristin: Hey, hey, hey! Podcast Nation it's your girl, Kandidly, Kristin, and this is the Kandid Shop. Your number one destination for kandid conversations.

Emotions and managing your emotions are a hot-button topic right now, so, I wanted to talk about it, and I am joined for this discussion by a clinical psychologist, blogger, and author of Emotions as Tools and Beyond Anger Management, Dr. Ed Daube AKA the Emotions Doctor.

Welcome, welcome, welcome, Dr. Daube to The Kandid shop.

Dr. Ed Daube: Well, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to our talk.

Kandidly Kristin: Yes, as am I. But first I have to know who gave you the moniker, the emotions, doctor? Is it a self-title or did somebody give that to you?

Dr. Ed Daube: No, that's self-titled. I'll give you a little bit of background, which puts it into context for you. When I grew up, emotions were not dealt with well within my family of origin. My father came from a time when men just didn't talk about emotions and so they weren't dealt with. And so what I did is I went into my head. And when I did my internship it was an alcoholic treatment program in San Francisco, and what they told me after about six months is that the way I dealt with my emotions was to push them down inside, whereas they dealt with their emotions by drinking or using drugs.

I never had a drug or alcohol problem.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay?

Dr. Ed Daube: They called me a non-drinking alcoholic. I'd never heard that before.

Kandidly Kristin: Me neither.

Dr. Ed Daube: So anyway, I start working at the California Youth Authority and I'm dealing with young women, all of whom have committed serious crimes and have histories of multiple cases of abuse, and I have to figure out a way to talk to them about their emotions.

So I developed the emotions as tools model. I did the same thing with emotionally jaded correctional staff. When I retired, I wanted to educate people about what emotions are and why we have them and the functions that they serve. And so I called myself the emotions doctor, and even today, every time I think about it and where I came from, I have to kind of chuckle at the moniker.

So I gave it to myself, and that's the background.

Kandidly Kristin: I think it's appropriate. so you kind of answered my next question. One of my first questions was how is the idea of emotions as tools conceived. But what exactly do emotions as tools mean?

Dr. Ed Daube: That's an excellent question. In our culture, we have a tremendous deficit. We are not taught what emotions are or why we have them; which leaves us to struggle with trying to figure out what emotions are, and we often feel controlled by them. So when you look at the model that I developed, emotions as tools, it then puts it into the context of what you're familiar with, which is a tool, whether it's a cell phone or it's a remote for your tv, or it's a sewing machine, or it's a bandsaw.

It's just a tool and when you understand what the tool is and how it works. Now, it's no longer scary. It just means I gotta figure it out. So for me, if I have trouble with my remote control, I call my kids and they come over and they fix it for me. It's just a matter of figuring out what the tool is. And if you look at it that way, each emotion communicates to you as the personal experience of that emotion, how you're experiencing what's going on around you.

Let me kind of backtrack and put it into context for you.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay.

Dr. Ed Daube: The emotion cycle works this way. All of us are constantly scanning our environment for threats. We've done that since we lived in caves, right? And that happens automatically. So you're scanning your environment and when your amygdala picks up a threat, it puts your body into fight or flight.

That happens automatically. And because it happens automatically, people believe that their emotions control them. They don't. Now the initial emotional reaction is indeed outside of your control. But that's it. Because the difference between us and when we lived in caves is we have developed the thinking part of our brain, which is called the cerebral cortex. And that enables us to take a step back, which is part of the emotional cycle. Take a deep breath, which lowers your emotional arousal, and then to access what's going on and whether the initial perception of the threat was accurate or not. And when you do that, you now have the opportunity to master, not manage, and there's a difference to master your emotions and allow them to help you better interact with what's going on, improve your life and improve your relationships.

Managing implies that we have to do something with emotion. We don't. We're not gonna change that. We're gonna understand it and we're gonna use the information that the emotion tells us to move forward.

Does that make sense?

Kandidly Kristin: It does. So using emotions as tools, and metaphor helps us to master not managing our emotions.

Dr. Ed Daube: Exactly. And if you understand what the message of each emotion is, that then empowers you to deal with it. So the message of anger, when you experience anger, tells you that you perceive a threat that you believe you can eliminate by going to war. Anger prepares you for battle. Anger says, I'm more powerful than this threat, and I'm gonna eliminate it. I'm going to attack. So that's what anger is. Now, sometimes the message is accurate, there is a real threat, and you need your anger to help you combat it. But at other times, when you misunderstand what's going on, you're ready to go to war and there's no opponent to go to war with.

Now the message of anxiety, which is a future-based emotion, is that there may be a threat and the threat may do me harm. As an example, when I teach my college classes, my students get anxious about their upcoming exams. Well, that's appropriate, right? So if they use that anxiety and they say, what's the nature of the threat and what do I need to do about it?

Then they can decide to study that using anxiety as what's called eustress. The flip side of that is that most people view their anxiety as distress. Where they can't make a decision. Eustress says I can't do anything about it. I'm gonna face that I don't want it. I don't know what I'm gonna do.

So when you feel anxious, the way to deal with that is to take a step back, take a deep breath, and say, what's the nature of the threat and what are my options? Now, the message of fear: fear is a present-based emotion, different from anxiety, although we often confuse the two. That says there's a real threat here and I need to get out of this situation. That's the kind of feeling you may experience when the elevator door opens up and there's somebody inside and he looks fine. He's perfectly dressed, no problem. But your gut says there's a problem here, and what you need to do in that case is take the next elevator.

Kandidly Kristin: Alright?

Dr. Ed Daube: It isn't always the case that the fear is giving you accurate information, but for your safety, it's always best to validate that fear and get out of that situation and deal with it later on if you have to.

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. Got it.

Dr. Ed Daube: So every emotion has a message, and when you understand that message, you now can decide, take a step back from the situation that gives you physical safety, take a deep breath, which gives you psychological safety, and then assess what's going on. And that's how you master your emotions as strategic tools.

Kandidly Kristin: I like it. I like it. So I want to talk a little bit about anger because your new book, Beyond Anger Management, mastering Your Anger as a Strategic Tool is out now or coming out.

Dr. Ed Daube: No, it's been out. It's available on Amazon.

Kandidly Kristin: Awesome. So what does Beyond Anger management look like?

Dr. Ed Daube: That's also an excellent question. The reason why I chose that title is after I retired, I began to take a look at how anger was dealt with. And I discovered two important things. First of all, there are a lot of anger management groups and anger management tends not to work. I've had people tell me you know, Dr. Daube, I went through this group and it didn't do me any good. And part of the reason for that is that when you take an anger management group, and there are some good ones out, good ones out there, what they do is they teach you to control that anger. And I'm not into controlling anger.

Yes, you need to control your reaction and your response in terms of acting out, but not control the emotion. And they don't teach you in these groups what anger is that is a tool. And then how to use the information that anger gives you, which is what we discussed earlier. So I wrote the book in terms of mastering your anger so that people who get angry now are empowered to do something with their anger.

The second thing that happened, which caught my attention, is I went onto a LinkedIn group. And it was a women's forum, and I identified myself as a man and I said, you know, I've got one question. What happens to you as a woman when you express anger appropriately?

I got 2000 responses, Kristin, basically saying that women were not permitted by men to express anger. When they did, they were labelled, they were demeaned; they were marginalized. And so I put a chapter about that in my book. And so the Anger Beyond Anger Management was designed to educate people about what anger is and how to use it to improve their lives because you can use the energy of the anger to go after whatever the threat happens to be, whether it's somebody stealing your work or it's somebody getting in the way of you doing what you need to do, or it's somebody who's just a jerk.

You need to use that anger and decide how to adaptively use it so that you not only maintain your safety, but you deal effectively with the situation.

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. So how do you do that? To use your anger as a strategic tool?

Dr. Ed Daube: Okay. You need to take a look at what's going on in this situation, and what is happening that you are perceiving as a threat. Is it the way someone talks to you, or is it the way somebody invades your space? So you need to look at the situation. Then you need to look at the relationship that you have with the person that you are perceiving as a threat. If you're in a situation where they're a boss, you can't deal with them directly. You may not be able to. So what you may have to do is deal with it indirectly. And what I mean by that is this. If you have a boss that is demeaning you in a situation because you're inferior to them in the correct office hierarchy, you may have to take what I call a Project management approach to it. So what do you do? If you have a project? You take a look at what needs to be done. You take a look at what your resources are and you take a look at how you proceed. So if you have a boss that you have to deal with, you may have to take a look. Is the way he's coming at me because of the way he sees what's going on, in which case, I may have to change his model of the world and how he perceives me; or is it a skill deficit? Does he not have the ability to interact with me appropriately? Let me put that again in context. I call that a basic relationship rule.

In every situation, every one of us does the best we can. Not the best possible but the best we can given two things, our model of the world. How we perceive what's going on and our skillsets.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah.

Dr. Ed Daube: So if we have this boss, maybe he doesn't understand what it is that I've done, which is why he's angry with me.

So I need to then change that, his model of the world by explaining to him what's going on. So I might say, boss, what is it that has happened? What is it that I've done that you don't see as appropriate, right? So then he can explain to me what's going on so that I can correct it. If it's a skills deficit, if he doesn't know how to deal with me by interacting with me appropriately, talking with me, or whatever's going on, I may or may not be able to intervene there.

I may just have to work around it. I may have to put up with it. I'll have to take a look at what my options are, or I may have to leave. Because I can't adjust his skills necessarily. If I can, that's great. If I can't, I'm going to have to find some other way.

Kandidly Kristin: Gotcha, gotcha. So, to someone listening right now that might struggle with getting angry and doing something they might regret or, you know, having inner consequences to their, anger, what's your best advice to that person or those people?

Dr. Ed Daube: My best advice is this. If you are getting angry and you are doing things that you later regret, then you need to think ahead of time. It's preparing yourself for the next time you get angry, okay? And you need to first identify what happens in your body that tells you you're getting angry.

This gives you an early warning. Like it's an early warning system. Where do you experience anger? Do you experience anger, and your head gets warm? Do you experience anger your body tightens? Do you experience anger that your thoughts quicken? So whatever it is that you experience that tells you I'm getting angry, you now need to focus on that.

And I need to tell your listeners what I'm suggesting is not easy, but it is doable and it takes practice. So you may not experience success the first time you do it. You may say, well, you know, I listened to Kandidly Kristin and Dr. Daube told me all I have to do is take a step back and take a deep breath and I'm done.

No, you're gonna have to look at it. So, Two things. First, understand what it is in your body that tells you that you're experiencing anger. Then you have to then tell yourself, okay, when I'm experiencing anger, I need to do two things. I need to take a step back from the situation, a physical step back, and I need to take a deep breath or two.

So now you're in a position, you understand that you're getting angry; you're taking a physical step back and you're taking a deep breath, then the next step is to say, what's going on here? How real is the threat? And do I need to do anything at all? Maybe I need to do what I need to do and walk away.

So again, what you're doing is you're preparing yourself ahead of time. It's the same thing, Kristin, that you do when you're going on vacation. When you're going on vacation, what do you do? You take a look at where you're going. You take a look at what clothes you're gonna need, the size of your suitcase, all of that.

So you're preparing ahead of time before you even take any clothes out of the drawer. Put anything in a suitcase. It's the same thing with getting angry. You're preparing yourself for when it happens. So when you are in a situation and you're getting angry, instead of just going off on the person. You now have a different option, and when you practice it'll become a habit for you, but you need to work at it.

Kandidly Kristin: And you can do that same thing with any of the emotions. Anxiety, fear.

Dr. Ed Daube: Yes. All of them. Now, with fear, yes, you take a step back and take a deep breath, but you're not the only action you're preparing yourself for in fear as opposed to anxiety is getting outta that situation. So you're not gonna analyze that when you experience fear. Real fear and you'll know it because it's different from anxiety. You'll know fear, and I'm saying leave. Don't bother assessing it. Just get out of there for your safety.

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. Now, is that true? Even if the fear is perceived and not actual, it's actual to you. So I guess.

Dr. Ed Daube: Exactly. If you can look at the situation and you can decide that the fear and many people say fear is false evidence appearing real. And that is sometimes the case. But what I'm saying is if you can distinguish between fear, which is a sense in your body that you are facing the sabertooth tiger. There's no question there. And if you're uncertain, I would rather your listeners leave the situation and be a little bit embarrassed if that's what happens, than get in a situation where they trust themselves and they get hurt and that's what I'm saying is fear.

Now, anxiety is a future-based emotion and many people call it fear. I'm afraid of the upcoming exam. I'm afraid of taking this interview. I'm afraid of that. So I understand the use of that word. But the emotion is different. Fear is like right here and now. Anxiety is off in the future. And when you distinguish between those two, now you can say, I'm anxious about something, so I need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and assess what's going on with fear.

Again, I'm saying if you look at that person in the elevator or you're about to go into a, dark parking structure and you begin to feel nervous and anxious and not anxious, but fear. I'm saying don't go into that structure alone and take the next elevator. That's the distinction that I'm making if that makes sense.

Kandidly Kristin: Uh, yes, it actually does to me. I hope to my listeners as well now, when we're talking about mastering our emotions and using them as tools, I know it's not a one size fits all nor is it something that's gonna happen overnight, but is there a point where it becomes second nature or you're not trying anymore to do it. It's like, okay, this is what I'm feeling and this is what I'm gonna do in response to that. Do you know what I mean? Like is it a forever kind of exercise?

Dr. Ed Daube: Well, the answer to your question is yes, it can become a habit. And yes, you may have to reinforce that habit periodically, forever. And what I mean by that is this, if you approach emotions from the point of view or with the understanding that whenever you feel something and to practice it, by the way, you can even do it when you're happy about something.

The message of happy is I'm doing something that is enjoyable and that I like, and that I'm gonna continue. So this is gonna sound silly, but think about it for a minute. So you feel happy and you take a step back from your project and you take a deep breath, and the other people in the room saying, what are you doing? What you're doing is you're reinforcing a habit so that when anger comes up, what do you do? You take a step back, same, and you take a deep breath and then you assess. Now when you're happy, there's nothing to assess. I'm enjoying it. I'm going back to doing my crossword puzzle. All right, but with anger, you take a step back, you take a deep breath, and you assess what is the nature of the threat? Do I need to attack? Do I need to ask a question about how this other person sees what's going on? Remember if they're coming at you sideways, it's because either their model is wrong of how they perceive what's going on, or they lack the skill sets. Men very often don't know how to deal well with anxiety or hurt.

So what do they do? They use anger as a secondary emotion, which anger is a secondary emotion. Now the problem with that is that anger has gotten a bad rep. And people say it's always a secondary emotion. No, it's not. Sometimes we've got a valid reason for being angry and we need to justify that.

Now women in our society generally, and it's probably changing, but generally, women tend to use sadness as a secondary emotion because getting angry may not be acceptable, or they may not be comfortable with their anger. Sadness is also a real emotion that needs to be looked at. The message of sadness is, I've lost something. And I need to take a step back, take a deep breath, let that sadness envelop me and take the time to mourn that loss or do what I have to do with it. So sadness as a basic emotion says I've lost something, and I need to deal with that loss as a secondary emotion. It may be I'm substituting sadness because I feel more comfortable with that than I am with anger.

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. Huh. Very, very interesting. So, Dr. Daube what are your last thoughts and the best advice to everyone that'll hear this as it relates to your emotions, use them as tools, mastering them. What would you say to them?

Dr. Ed Daube: Okay. What I would say is this, you need to educate yourself and if you want to buy my books, I think that's great. I'm all for it, and I thank you in advance. However, to get information much more than what's in my books, you can go to my website, my blog, which is https://theemotionsdoctor.com/ and when you get there and you go to the landing, on the landing page, you want to go to the upper left-hand corner and there's an index tab. Click on the index tab and you'll get a dropdown menu, and that will give you access to all of my 225-plus blog entries on all aspects of emotions. There's more information there than you're probably ever gonna be able to digest, or even want but it's there and it's free. So go there and go to the category that most interests you. It might be the anger category, it might be relationships. And educate yourself as to what emotions are and why we have them. And then when you do that and you practice taking a step back, taking a deep breath, and assessing what's going on. You will now be in a better position to master your emotions as tools and allow them to empower you to improve your own life and your relationship with others.

Kandidly Kristin: Thank you, Dr. Daube. Oh, it has been my absolute pleasure to have you on to talk about what I view as an important topic, and that is emotions and managing emotions when, when you look at things going on in the world, and sometimes I wonder, well, why did you have to do that if you were angry versus, you know what I mean?

Dr. Ed Daube: Oh, no, exactly.

Kandidly Kristin: You know, mass shootings and stuff like that. Maybe if they had just taken a step back and a deep breath and assessed, they might have made a different choice at that moment for whatever reason they were angry or upset or hurt so I thought it was important to have this conversation and who better to have it with than the emotions doctor. So I thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having this chat with me.

Dr. Ed Daube: Well, thank you for having me. It's been fun, Kristin. Thank you. I hope it's been useful to your listeners.

Kandidly Kristin: It will be, I'm sure. So, guys, Dr. Daube's contact information links to his website and to where you can get his books are gonna be in the show notes.

And please don't forget to go to my website at https://www.thekandidshop.com/ and listen to an episode or three or four like follow, share, and tell your friends about the show. Until next time, all of my wonderful listeners, I want you all to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it kandid.