From Junkie to Judge: A Kandid Chat with Mary Beth O'Connor

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: This is a Content Trigger Warning. This episode contains discussions about drugs and substance abuse. You are advised to refrain from listening if you are likely to be offended or be adversely impacted by any of these topics. Take care of yourself.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Hey podcast nation, it is your girl Kandidly Kristen and this is the Kandid Shop, your number one destination for kandid conversations. If you're new here, welcome. And if you're a regular listener, welcome back and thank you so much for your support. So today I am sitting down for a kandid chat with former federal administrative law judge and author of Junkie to Judge, One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction, Maribeth O'Connor. Maribeth is also the founding investor for She Recovers Foundation and a director for Life Ring Secular Recovery. So welcome, welcome, welcome Maribeth to the Kandid Shop.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Well, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: So am I. So really brief background on me. This substance addiction is personal to me because I battled with it in my early mid-20s, and I opted for a non-faith-based or 12-step route to recovery. So this chat is one I've really been looking forward to because whenever I tell people that, they're like, you didn't go to NA or nothing. I'm like, yeah, no, I didn't. So, before we get started on our chat, I just wanted to throw out a couple of stats. So, according to the National Center for Drug Abuse Statistics, among Americans age 12 years and older, 37,309 million were current illegal drug users, in parentheses, used within the last 30 days as of 2020. Over 59 million or 21.4% of people 12 and over have used illegal drugs or misused prescription drugs within the last year. And accidental overdose, drug overdose, is the leading cause of death, excuse me, among persons under the age 45. And I think that they're still counting marijuana in these stats. Not sure why, but I believe that it is. So Mary Beth, what do those stats say to you?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Well, I'll say a couple of things. I'm pretty sure they do count marijuana because federally it's still not legal. And so that would be my guess. And the other thing is the death stats that you mentioned, it's the 18 to 45 age group, right? It doesn't count kids as far as it being the number one cause of death, but. That is the first time we have never, you know, we typically it's accidents that may sometimes involve substances, but it's a new data point. We lost over 110,000 people in 2022 to overdose, 80% of which were opiates. And the thing that's really changed is that it used to be that almost all of the ov now it's a higher percent are casual users or it's And that's because of the of the drug supply with p that have a higher risk o sometimes particularly yo or early twenties, they d there's fentanyl in it be taking oxy or they think so we are in a much more
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. I agree. So if you don't mind, could you briefly just share with me and my listeners a little bit about what to me is an amazing journey from addiction to becoming a federal judge.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: I always do like to put the context around it because for me, it was really a push towards using substances early and excessively because of abuse, right? I mean, I grew up in a household that really my mother wasn't connected to me. She wasn't really interested and she was violent. But when I was nine, we moved in with my stepfather and he was very violent with her. He was physically and sexually violent with me. And that is a common pathway to substance use disorder. Right. I had PTSD and I didn't even know it. I had struggled with severe anxiety. I had sexual assaults in my teens and early 20s. And so I started using drugs when I was 12. And the first drug was alcohol, which, you know, it's usually either cannabis or alcohol. Right. That's the first. But by 17, I was shooting meth and I was in full bore addiction in high school. I mean, I was in really bad shape. I did do a little better in college for a while, but I had one of those terrible rapes. It was actually a kidnapping, six hours, three men. I know. And then I moved in with a violent boyfriend. And then I sort of lost my grip again. And I started using meth on a daily basis in my senior year of college. And I did not get sober until I was 32. So it was a really long haul. And it was, you know, it was a vicious, miserable, chaotic existence for a very long time.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, I always say I'm a firm believer that addiction is the symptom of a deeper trauma, an unhealed trauma. Nobody wakes up, really, and says, I'm just going to go be hooked on crack or meth. You know what I mean? It's a symptom. And I will always believe that, that if you dig up the root of the trauma, then the triggers don't trigger you anymore to do the things you used to do, or you find better coping mechanisms. In your journey, were there any, for you, pivotal moments or experiences where you said, OK, this is enough, and I need to take my life in a different direction? And how did that look for you?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Yeah, I mean, so it was really, you know, by 32, it was sort of a combination of things that pushed me into looking at getting treatment. And before that, I actually used to like say proudly, like, I never even tried to quit. Like, this was a positive thing.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Oh my God, you sound like me.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: That's how crazy the thinking was, you know, like this is a moment of aspect of pride. But, you know, I also did feel very trapped. I mean, it wasn't, as we know, it's not a happy existence. It's a miserable existence. And by 32, I was really starting to have physical problems because meth is a very toxic drug. And I took a lot of it for a very long time. And I also, you know, I say I had worked my way down the corporate ladder because I couldn't hold a job. I had a Berkeley degree and I couldn't hold a job because I was using meth. And I also was really just, you know, exhausted. I mean, exhausted beyond exhausted, in despair. And then my partner was ready to throw me out. And so it was sort of all of those things together that at 32 made me finally say, you know, well, what if I go to rehab? And so that's sort of how it played out for me.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay, okay. So I want to, our conversation is going to kind of jump around because from your experiences as a federal judge to the book and kind of the life ring, which I'd never heard of before you. in your tenure as a judge, and we know that the legal system, the justice system very often intersects with addiction, mental health, recovery. So from your perspective, when you are a judge, what changes or reforms do you think are what's needed in the system to better address that intersection?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: So when I was a judge, I didn't do criminal cases, but I will say that I support decriminalization of all drugs for personal use. And there's a number of reasons for that. One of them is that, you know, our own governments, our federal government, my state of California, most states we define, they define substance use disorder as a disease or a brain disorder, and then they criminalize it. Well, that's a contradiction. Okay. That's a contradiction. On top of which, if someone doesn't have a substance use disorder and they're arrested for a drug offense, especially just for possession. I mean, we today have half a million people in jail just for possession, not for other crimes related to it, not for sales, not for I robbed somebody to get money for drug, it's just for possession. If somebody's using drugs in their personal life and it doesn't hurt anyone else, I honestly don't care. To me, that's their personal decision. But some of the other problems are that it's, first of all, a lot more expensive to incarcerate people than it is to treat them. We can treat three or four people for every person we incarcerate. And the reality is that today we do not have treatment on demand. We do not have affordable, readily accessible treatment for everyone. So that money could be better used in a different way. on top of which there is the racial disparity in the enforcement of our drug laws. And I wrote an op-ed about this for the Los Angeles Times, because the reality is that people of color and white people use drugs at very similar rates, but they don't get arrested at similar rates. People of color are much more likely to get pulled over. And if they're pulled over, they're more likely to get searched. If there are drugs, they're more likely to get charged. And the charges tend to be higher and the sentences tend to be longer. And so we don't even enforce our drug laws in a fair and equitable way, which to me undermines the credibility of those laws. So those are just some of the reasons that I really do think that we would be better off just decriminalizing personal use and using the money that we could spend on incarceration on treatment and other supports like health, getting a job and, you know, other medical and housing supports and just a much better use of our money to tackle it in a different way.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I agree. I agree. And why do you think there is such resistance to even the notion of what you suggest?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: You know, it's interesting because, you know, there is so much stigma around substance use disorder. And, you know, and I use I will say addiction sometimes, but I say substance use disorder because that sticks it in the medical box where it belongs. Yeah. I mean, on one hand, many people do will use the words, oh, yeah, I understand that. Let's say alcohol use disorder or alcoholism is a disease or other drug use. Substance use disorder is a disease. But then at the same time, there's still a moral judgment around it that somehow you're at fault. I'm at fault because I developed this medical condition, this brain disorder that somehow I should be able to just like snap my fingers and stop. And like you say, a lot of times what's driving it is something else like I had, you know, like PTSD or even mental health disorder that's not trauma based, but it's just biological. Right. And people are trying to self medicate because they don't get proper treatment. And so it's really America seems to have a hard time letting separating out there, sometimes understanding that it's a medical condition from their judgment. I do think one of the reasons for that is because the nature of substance use disorder is that it's difficult to stay sober in the beginning for many of us, right? Perfect abstinence from day one, it happens, but that's not the most common path. And it wasn't for me. I mean, I used three times in my first five months, and in January, I'm gonna have 30 years, you know? understandable frustratio people don't have, you kn don't all go into treatme longer struggle. Um, and friends and family. I mea sure we have our own frie been through it from that I think there's a lot of dynamics at play. And also, to be honest, the politicians, they like the sound of hard on crime. It's political resonance for them. And it's simpler to say that than it is to actually address the more complicated reality of what substance use disorder is and how we get ourselves out of the hole that we're in.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, I agree. Are there any legislations, even at the state level, to do to make all of it legal for personal use. I know a lot of states have done the marijuana thing. I'm not quite sure why the feds are holding on to marijuana so hard. But when you talk, when people hear all substances legal for personal use, it's like, I think what comes to mind is this just hedonistic free-for-all where everybody's walking around high as hell and, you know, doing all kinds of crazy things. For the most part, most people that have a substance abuse issue are very private. They're not out and about, you know, doing other things. So I guess my question is, is there or have there ever been any legislation at the federal level to do that?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: No, but Oregon just recently decriminalized personal use, you know, up to certain quantities of possession. And that was about two years ago. So they're still in the early stages because it took them it took a while for the money to the savings money to sort of be accrued and distributed. But other countries have done it. I mean, in Portugal, for example, they decriminalized personal use. I mean, I'd have to look at the exact date 15 years ago, 20 years ago, and they had a radical. But But they also, they didn't just decriminalize it, they used the money for support and for treatment. And so their drug use rate went down, it's still one of the lowest in Europe. Their overdose rate, while it's ticked up as all countries have, it's still much lower than average in Europe. And their crime rate went down because people weren't having to steal to get drugs in the same way. There's also easy access to medication-assisted treatment, which can be hard in America. Try to get buprenorphine if you don't have insurance, or get methadone if you can't stand in line all day waiting for your turn. You're also supposed to have a job and be doing other things. So, I mean, so there's there are examples around the world and Oregon is the first state in the US that has decriminalized personal use, you know, up to a certain up to a certain volume of possessions. So, you know, depending on the drug, they have different quantities that you're allowed to have.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Gotcha. And the data supports it, so I don't really understand the resistance. Again, I think it's just embedded that it's inherently bad. But what's funny to me is that when the crack epidemic hit, It was the war on drugs and now fast forward to the opiates and oh it's a disease and just the differences in the way those very similar substance abuse issues were handled. So I think there's a lot of that at play.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: That's true. I mean, a lot of the early drug laws were clearly racially targeted. I mean, they, you know, when you go into their documents, they admit it at the time. And so they try to tie, you know, the drug laws to minority groups that they wanted to oppress. Right. And even the way, as I say, the enforcement still going forward, that still happens today. But, yeah. It's an unfortunate dynamic. I will say though that as far as the change in attitude around the opiate crisis, as far as really a little more sympathy in part because it's so widespread that many more families know people that have suffered this at the same time with fentanyl, there's now in some places they want to up the anti-criminally again. So, for example, they're saying, well, if you, you know, they want to use, they want to have it be a homicide if you sold the drugs or gave the drugs to the person who died. And what they'll say is they're going after the drug dealers. But what happens in real life is it's their friends. you know, it's their friends. Because as we know, one person goes out and gets the drug for, you know, maybe for three of us, and then they come back and we split it, you know what I mean? And yet, if someone died, they would charge criminally the person who went out and picked the drugs up. So they say that they're targeting the higher level dealers, but they're really catching people as friends. And they're still using that those kind of laws to put those people in jail for 20 years and maybe longer. So that's the mixed message again, right? So for five seconds, we talked about the opioid crisis like it was a health issue. But now that more people are dying, they turn back to criminalizing it again. again. So it's a very scattered attitude that we have. And I mean, the truth is we should view this as pure public policy. You know, this should be health policy. It should be all about what the health science shows us, what the addiction doctors and researchers are telling us. And so much of the policy isn't around that. The other thing I will say about the decriminalization thing is when they talk about how somehow it's going to make more people use drugs, they talk as if it's hard to get drugs today. Like, it's not hard. They're illegal and very easy to get at the same time. OK, so it's like they're talking about some fantasy world where people struggle to find the drugs they want. I don't know what world that is, but it's not the United States of America.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: It certainly is. It is not. It has not been.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: And the other reality is that the data shows from the other countries that when decriminalized, the usage doesn't go up. I mean, the truth is that most people use all drugs in moderation, right? Only a small percentage of people develop a use disorder, even with heroin. It's under 20 percent. And different drugs have different rates, but none of them are high. 80% of the people who use heroin use it in moderation. I'm not saying I'm encouraging people to go out and use heroin, but what I'm saying is that most people, and in particular as you say, the people who don't have the sort of the emotional need to numb themselves or reduce pain, that's the group that uses it to excess. The people who have other issues, other underlying challenges that they are trying to address in not the best way by using a substance. They're the people who use it to excess. Most people use drugs in moderation.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, recreationally or socially. Yes, yes. So talk to me a little bit about life ring, the principles, the approach, because I was not familiar with it. Talk to me about it and how it differs from more traditional recovery methods.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Yeah. So like you, you know, 12 steps wasn't the right fit for me. And I always want to make it clear. I support 12 steps when it is. But the reality is that too often people are told it's the only way or a better way. And neither one of those things are true. What's really important is that people know that there are options and they can find the place that fits them best, you know? And so one of those can be LifeRings Secular Recovery. I used their parent organization when I got sober 30 years ago. But LifeRings focus, we call it the 3S philosophy. And so for us, it's sobriety. Although for LifeRings, sobriety includes any medication that is medically indicated. And I really emphasize taken as prescribed. So for example, you can be on medication-assisted treatment for opiates. You can be on buprenorphine or suboxone, and if you're taking it as prescribed, we count that as sober. Because we don't get between our members and their doctors. And then it's secularity, which means out of respect for all faiths and none. We don't have religion in meetings. But many of our members have personal, religious, or spiritual beliefs, and we don't have any opinion about that. It's just that we don't approach recovery from a faith-based side. We focus on our third S, which is self-empowerment. And so what we teach is that you are actually not powerless. You need to fight for your recovery. But also that you really do, at a fundamental level, know what will work for you and what won't. and that what works for you and what works for me may be different. And so our recovery plans are going to be individualized. Now, that doesn't mean by yourself. We have meetings. We emphasize mutual support can be beneficial. We have a workbook that can help people build a personal recovery plan. It's really detailed. And a lot of recovery coaches use it even for non-lifering people, because it's a good tool. But it's really about you being the decision maker in your recovery. What do I think is the right plan for me? The group is there to offer suggestions, and I emphasize suggestions, not mandates, if you want them, right? But it's still, you're the decider as to what should be in your plan and how you're going to implement it. And the other thing I'll emphasize is that the different programs have different meeting formats too. So in LifeRing, for example, you know how a 12-step meeting, they have like somebody talks for 20 or 30 minutes about their stories and then their recovery. Well, we don't do that in LifeRing. So the entire meeting is the group talking, you know, the whole hour. And in fact, we have crosstalk. So our members can talk to each other. The convener will make sure the crosstalk is positive or neutral and that it all stays on point. Also that the crosstalk is wanted by the person, you know, who just shared. But it's like the group, you can talk about something that happened with the group. You know, you could say, you know, I had a slip when, you know, I was at my family event and I just got overwhelmed and, you know, and so I went over to the bar and I got a drink. hey, group, can you give me some suggestions as to how I could better handle that? And there can be a conversation around the table. And so that's, when people look at the different peer support options, I always emphasize, look at the philosophy, but also look at the meeting format, because they do vary.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay. And are there other secular groups, life, life, life ring?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: There were definitely other groups that are non-12 step groups. So there's SMART Recovery, which is sort of cognitive behavioral therapy focused. There's She Recovers Foundation. I'm on the board for She Recovers. And that's not just substance recovery, but it's also recovery from trauma, mental health, self-harm, workaholism, other behavioral disorders like eating, all together, because most of the women in recovery have one or more of those other things to work on too. There's women for sobriety, there's Recovery Dharma. Those are really the largest groups that I know of. And so if you were going to look at like six, I would look at 12 Steps, Life Ring, She Recovers, Smart, Women for Sobriety, and Recovery Dharma. And those are sort of the largest that are out there. But there are others, but there are others. And so You know, today, when I got home from rehab and I was trying to find the options, it was 1994 and there was like no Google, right? So I had to go to the library. I actually got my car, I went to the library, I had to call 800 numbers and send checks to P.O. Boxes. It was like a, you know, it was an effort, right? But today you can just Google it and you can go to their websites and get a lot of information.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: But you know, what's funny is as you named all, I had never heard of any of them. I think if in 2023, NA is still like the thing, it's like the only thing.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: So, well, I mean, you know, in some communities face to face, there is only 12 steps. And so we actually before COVID, we had six online meetings then because we were never, we had like 200 meetings around the country, but we were never in Montana, let's say. Right. And so we always had online meetings so that anyone who wanted to could participate. And so in some communities, the only face-to-face meeting will be 12 steps, although sometimes you do have the other options, one or more of them. But the other thing I emphasize is that for, for example, for Lifering and SheRecovers, if our members want to also do 12 steps, we support that because it's their plan. And so some of our members go to 12 steps in their l they build their program attending online and by bu even have to pick one or step members are welcome i And I will say my program, I mixed them up. I mean, I went to, well, 12 steps in the beginning because they told me that's all there was. And I pulled a few ideas out. I went to Women for Sobriety, I went to LifeRings Parent, and I went to SMARTS Parent, Rational Recovery, and I really synthesized the ideas into what today we would call a hybrid or a patchwork plan. It is more common today that people don't exclusively do one program, that they pull ideas from more than one place, and that can be a really successful strategy too. It's the basis of my 30 years of sobriety.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay. Okay. And Life Ring and She Recovers are separate organizations? Yes. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Now we're going to talk a little bit about your work as an advocate. Now your work as an advocate spans like multiple areas, trauma-informed recovery, criminal justice reform. And so my question to you is how can professionals in various fields, law enforcement, healthcare, criminal justice, better incorporate trauma-informed and substance recovery-informed care into their best practices?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Well, I will say that, let's take the medical community as an example. It is still a problem that people are stigmatized by the medical community. And so, for example, people might go to the ER, let's say somebody who's unhoused and has a substance use disorder. and they sort of go to the ER more than one time, it is not uncommon that they aren't treated with the same respect and the same courtesy as other people. And that will actually make it harder for them to listen to you if you're offering them resources or to ask for help if they need it because they feel like you're disrespecting them and that you don't really care. And so There are a number of studies about stigma, about substance use within the medical community, and the medical community of all groups ought to know better, right? They ought to know better. And so that's an ongoing problem. And so I just read a study today that they were looking at that if you train, if in medical school they're trained about stigma, they actually do stigmatize less when they get into practice. And so there are things like that that can be done. The police are another group, right? I mean, a lot of times, it really depends on the police force. A lot of it can depend on the leadership, sort of what's the top-down message about this, but are you looking at someone with a substance use disorder as a criminal, or are you looking at that as someone with a medical condition? And those can be two very different viewpoints, and how you treat them can really vary depending on which box you put them in.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes, absolutely. I was in the ER, I cracked my rib, I fell in a tub, and there was another gentleman there. And, you know, you only have a curtain in there, so you can kind of hear. And it felt like to me, this person was not being given anything stronger than 800 milligram ibuprofen because he was a frequent flyer or they thought he was just there seeking drugs, but he looked like he had broken his ankle. So I'm thinking, so you're not going to give him anything stronger than Tylenol? And I'm like, you know, forsaken the humanity in somebody that's injured substance abuse or not, you're supposed to treat them for their medical issues. His ankle clearly looks broken. So I don't know how we change that, but it should change.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: that's true. And the othe let's say the E. R. Is th might be given a list, yo these people. A lot of th use disorder or opiate us offered medication assist you know, the gold standa should be offered the opt forced into withdrawal wit to, you know, make that e craving. And so they're g and do what they've been d offer them alternatives, that can reduce their cr going to go through a wi them with that. So, you k There's not a good handoff, you know, between someone, you have the person in front of you. Are you treating them with respect? And are you asking them, you know, the questions, do you want medication assisted treatment? Do you want to go into a detox? Do you want to go into a treatment program? Can we hand you off to someone else? Can we call them and have them come up? That often doesn't happen. And people, part of the reason they cycle through also is that we, as I said, we don't have treatment available for everybody, right? I mean, it just doesn't exist. I feel like, We act as if it exists. We act as if everybody can get a treatment if they just ask. And it's just not true. I mean, if you don't have insurance and if you don't have money, and depending on where you live, either it's not there at all or there's a 90-day wait list or something, you know? And so let's at least, if we're gonna be judgmental, let's judge them based on the facts, you know?
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Even if they want to.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Yes, let's not judge based on our fantasy about the way things are because it's when I went into rehab, even I had to call every Monday between nine and noon for 10 weeks to work my name up the wait list. Yeah, because if I missed a call, if I missed a week, I was going to drop to the bottom again. And it was it was a big accomplishment for me to do that. I was very proud. But I was living in a stable home. I mean, not everybody has that, you know, and so we really can make things unnecessarily difficult. And part of that is because we're, you know, spending money on the in places that we would be better sort of spending it on treatment options and having more treatment beds and more detox beds for people.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Absolutely. I absolutely 100% agree. So I want to segue a little bit and talk about your book, which I just started. I didn't know it was on Audible, which is my preferred way to read. So I just started listening to it. But what motivated you to write the book? And what, if any, messages or lessons did you hope that people that read it or heard it took away from it?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: I mean, when I was appointing a federal judge, and I will say for the listeners, so when I got sober, as I mentioned, I had that horrible resume. I had a Berkeley degree and good grace, but I had to start from where I was. And so my first job was a. part-time low-level temporary admin job. And then my second job was a mid-level permanent full-time admin job. And then I went to a bigger company and I got a promotion. And at six years sober, six and a half actually, I went to law school at Berkeley Law. And at 20 years sober, I was appointed a federal judge after I had worked as a lawyer for a number of years. And so when I got so, I mean, when I got the judge job, it was really kind of a time of reflection. Like, how the heck did I go from shooting meth at 17 and not getting sober until I was 32, and now I'm a judge? Like, how did I do that? And I started to wonder if my story could be of any use, you know, is there any, can I add value? And so I started thinking about writing a memoir, but I actually hadn't read very many memoirs. And so I started reading them, especially recovery memoirs. And I noticed a couple things. One is many of the memoirs sort of they don't go into the why of the substance use disorder. They sort of leap into the chaos of the addiction. And I really thought it was important to show why. And so the first section of my book is really my childhood and what led up to me picking up alcohol and then really pursuing at a very intense level drugs for the next 20 years. And then I do have sort of the usual, here's what my addiction was like stories. But then at the end of a lot of the memoirs, it was sort of like, and I went to a couple of meetings and everything was great. It's like, well, that's not how recovery works. And so at all. And so 30% of my book is about my first three years of recovery, because I really wanted to show a more realistic example. But also, because I had to recover from the trauma, which so many women in particular, but also some men do. And because I didn't do my recovery 12 steps. And all the memoirs I read were 12-step memoirs. And so I thought it was important to show an example of how you might do it a different way. I mean, a lot of the techniques and things I talk about can also be used by 12-step people. But I saw there was something missing in the genre, and that's what I saw. So I have that whole arc from the trauma to the substance use to the recovery, including the trauma recovery, and including building sort of that hybrid non-faith based plan that I built.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice, nice, nice, nice. Well, I certainly was impressed and I think that your book absolutely will have an impact, even if it only impacts one or two people. And they, you know, they get to take away that there's hope, you know, and I don't necessarily have to do it this way or that way. I can do it my way. So.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: That's right. And I will say, as a former judge, I also was thinking about stigma reduction. Right. I mean, I really feel like when I see people on television and they're shooting that, they're always presented as if like these people are so far gone. We can't even talk to them.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Like, why would they're just they're beyond our understanding. And I really wanted to own up to having shot meth for really 15 years because I wanted to try to increase the empathy and the understanding as to why someone might do that. But also, as you say, the hope that even if that's where you are or where your loved one is, there is a path out and you can still have a happy and productive life. It takes a lot of work, not just for the substance side, but for the mental health and other type of recoveries. It is on the table if you can just, if we can offer the help that they need and if they can find enough hope to believe that it may be possible and so it's worth the work.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Absolutely. So I got to ask you, writing a book like this and telling your story, it's the ultimate in vulnerability, transparency. Was that difficult for you? How did you work through those times when you were like, I don't really want people to notice?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Well, it is, it is interesting because you do really have to reveal like your whole self, right? I mean, I have parts of that that don't make me look good, you know what I mean? And I don't mean the drug use, I mean other things that I did, you know? And so you have to be really honest or the reader is going to be able to tell. If you tell some sort of sugar-coated version of your behavior, you know, that's not going to apply. And so it is a big deal. And I will say when I, the first time that I ever had a real big public announcement about my drug use was I had an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal. And in it, it was called, I Beat Addiction Without God. And in it, I revealed that, you know, I was a former meth addict and a former judge and people were not happy about that. They were not happy. But you know what? Look, I had 20 years of sobriety when I was appointed a judge. My odds at that point of ever developing an active substance use disorder again were actually very similar to the odds of someone else who never struggled with drugs of developing. So, you know, I mean, basically I was in the same box as everybody else by that point. And so it's sort of interesting that we judge people. But the other thing I'll say is what we really haven't talked about is that, look, Alcohol is still the number one abused drug in America. It's actually still a bigger killer than the overdoses, although it's getting close. The numbers are close now. But I feel like there's this sort of hierarchy on addiction, right? It's better to be addicted to alcohol than meth. It's better to pop pills than to shoot up. And I shot meth, which sort of puts me at the bottom. But you and I know it's all the same in your body, right? I mean, the reality is that it's all The brain impact, they're slightly different from drug to drug, but they're very similar. The same sort of processes are operating. And so I always want to make sure we include alcohol. Whenever I say drugs, I always mean including alcohol.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: And alcohol is still legal and cigarettes too.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Yes. Well, it's funny about the cannabis thing because sometimes people, when I, because I do a lot of, you know, I do a lot of talks, I give talks, I do workshops, and I usually have a question and answer. And often I'm asked about making cannabis legal. And one of the things I emphasize is that cannabis, if you're going to pick as far as safety goes, and as far as the risk of developing a use disorder goes, you really ought to pick cannabis over alcohol, especially edible. Smoking it is, you know, not great, but edible. Because alcohol is more highly addictive than cannabis is. And it has, there are more accidents and other things that go around alcohol. And so we really need to be honest about the alcohol side. But the other thing is that the science now shows that alcohol, even at moderate use, has physical risks. I mean, women in particular, their risk of cancer, even using alcohol moderately, is significantly higher. Moderate alcohol is for women one drink a day and for men two drinks a day. And remember, it's the right number of ounces. It's not the wine glass filled to the top. Um, and so there is a revisiting of alcohol in, you know, in our society, which is good. And it's not really about making people stop. It's not about making them do anything, but it's not even saying you should stop. It's really trying to get people to understand their risks so they can make an informed choice. And maybe they'll choose to use less, even if they continue to use.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes. So for those who are currently struggling with addiction and or trauma, what words of encouragement, wisdom would you offer to them?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: I mean, I will say that one of the things that's changed in my 30 years of sobriety is when I got sober, they told us that they would not even evaluate us for mental health until we had 90 days sober. And that is not the right answer. Oh my gosh. should be evaluated for a conditions right in the b you could have depression, bipolar, you know, psychot you're going to do better if you attack them simultaneously. The other side of it is if you go in for treatment for mental health, you should be evaluated for substance use disorder because 25% of the people with a mental health disorder also have a substance use disorder. But today they attack them together because it's hard to stay sober if your mental health isn't stabilized and it's hard to get your mental health stabilized if you're using, right? I mean, you need to attack them together. And so that today is called dual diagnosis or concurrent disorders. And so if you have both, that's definitely what you should look for. But there are people who specialize in that and there are treatment programs that specialize in that. The other thing is that I think people need to think about if you're going in, let's program, I would always t we say M. A. T. What we also reduce cravings and y for months to years and t and opiates, although no for stimulants, but there are some drugs that are in studies for stimulants. And some are actually starting to be prescribed off label. So if you have had, let's say, sometimes when people say, well, I've tried like three or four times, I've been to rehab and I try meetings. And then I'll say, well, did you ever try MAT? And they don't even know, nobody offered it to them. And that's to me about practice. They really need to be offered MAT, particularly if you haven't had success without it and you've tried before. But the other thing is that there are just a lot more options on the table today. The peer support options are easier to access, including because they're online. There is there is more understanding about. you know, the needs or the benefits of aftercare, right? I mean, 28 or 30 day inpatient programs are, they can be an initial start, right? But that's not going to do it for most of us, right? And so looking at when I get out, what's my plan? You know, am I going to be in therapy? For me, I went to therapy as soon as I got home for my trauma, in addition to really going to a lot of meetings and focusing on my substance recovery. And so it's a double tackle, right? Tackle them both at the same time. But I've seen people that have succeeded on try one, but I've seen many people who struggle for maybe even two years and yet eventually they're able to do it. I mean, the reality is in the beginning when you're trying to get sober, You don't have the skills you need to be able to be perfect about it. You know, it's just you're not, you don't know how to handle the triggers. You don't know how to handle your emotions or conflict. And so we tend to go to what we know. But, but that's not a point to give up. That's just. you know, recognize that that happens to a lot of people and yet they are able to succeed later. And sometimes people have a pattern where they'll get longer and longer periods of sobriety, you know, more time and the relapses get shorter and shorter. And so, you know, you try to like look at the pattern and see what's positive. But For everyone, you know, I really do. If your life, if the drugs, including the alcohol, are interfering with you living your best life, and even if you know that it's due to pain or untreated mental health, there are ways to approach these things and to find a path forward.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: That's excellent advice. Thank you so, so very much. That is the end of our air quotes formal chat. And now we get to my favorite, favorite, favorite part of the show. And that is 10 kandid questions. All right. 10 kandid questions, just 10 random questions I found in this ridiculous 200 questions that you should ask or something. I was like, I've got to figure out some way to wrap this show up where I just don't go, OK, well, we're done. Some of them are either or. Some of them require a more fleshed out answer, but they all have to be answered kandidly. So you ready?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Ready.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: All right. What is your favorite curse word? Fuck. Everybody says that. It's such a, you know, you can use it anywhere.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: It's a personal word. Yes, yes, yes.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: It's the best. It's the best. All right, question number two, dogs or cats? Dogs. Same, same. Question number three, what do people misunderstand about you the most?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Oh, that's interesting. I can be intense in communication. I'm better now, but especially before. And sometimes people read that as I'm upset, you know, but I'm not upset. I'm just really animated.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Got it. Got it. It can be confused because I can be especially about something I'm passionate about. They're like, I mean, I'm just, you know, really passionate. I don't know. That's right. Question number four, Pepsi or Coke?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Oh, Pepsi. Absolutely. In fact, it's in my book. You know, I was brought up with Pepsi. As I say, I grew up in a Pepsi and potato chip house.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Like that was yes. Question number five. If you had the entire world's undivided attention for five minutes, what would you say?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: I would encourage them to look at people who are struggling with substance use disorder as individuals and as people struggling with a challenging and difficult medical condition and to base all of their policy choices and all of the places they put their money around that reality.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Great answer. Question number six, morning person or night owl? Morning. You know, what's funny is when I was younger, I was a night owl. I was, you know, up all night. And the older I get, the more I cherish the quiet and the peace of the very early morning.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Yeah. And, you know, my husband's more of a night owl. And so I have the morning to myself to do my stuff, you know, before he wakes up, which is nice.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes. Very. Question number seven. How would you like to be remembered?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Oh, that's interesting. I guess I would like to be remembered as someone who, you know, who really did her best. And, and at this point in life, trying to be trying to be a service, you know, who spent her last years. I mean, I'm not dying tomorrow. For the last few years, now that I'm retired, I mean, I'm a retired judge, right? I can talk openly about all these things in a different way. And so I try to use that ability to really be of use at this point in my life.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice. Question number eight, extrovert or introvert?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Extrovert, but I do like my quiet time. You know, I don't like constant stimulation.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I agree. Question number nine, what's one question you wished I'd asked you during our chat and how would you have answered?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: Oh, I guess the one thing I would say that I you could have asked that you didn't would be about guidance for friends and family. You know, you know, that's often one of the big issues or one of the big questions and concerns. And so today, you know, that tough love idea has really been disproven as the right approach. And so there's a new approach for friends and family is called craft community reinforcement and family training. and it's much more posit focused, but it also reall what's going on with thei why they're using the sub going and it gives a lot to try to keep the rela to try to posit with a p help them find a way out. good book that's based on beyond addiction. And I book for friends and famil
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay. That's good. You know, I always, that question and my 10th question are the same because they're kind of for me to help me be a better interviewer. And I asked that and when you said it, I'm like, ah, I definitely should have had that in there. I mean, I love it when people say, oh no, you nailed it. And I'm like, okay, cool. But I also like the feedback when somebody says, yeah, I wish we had to talk a little bit about that. So thank you for that. Sure. And the last question is, how can my listeners connect with you, She Recovers, or Life Ring?
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: So for me, my book, From Junkie to Judge, One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction, is on Amazon and all the usual places. And your bookstore, your local bookstore can get it or has it. My website is junkietojudge.com and my op-eds are there. A lot of other information, but also you can message me through my website. And so I answer every message. If anyone had a question or any opportunity for me to be of service, do that. I'm on Twitter, I'm at MaryBethO underscore, and I don't argue with people on Twitter. I actually provide information. So I provide like the new studies that come out about substance use and recovery or articles or my recovery thoughts. That's what I use it for. I try to make it valuable. And then LifeRing is LifeRing.org and SheRecovers is SheRecovers.org.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay, awesome. And listen, guys, all of that will be in the show notes, because I know you're not out there writing it down. But Mary Beth, thank you so much. Thank you for the book. Thank you for, again, your transparency and vulnerability and discussing an oftentimes not comfortable topic. When I tell people that they're like, when I tell people, you know, I was, I had a substance abuse problems, you know, for a number of years, and they're like, no, really? And I'm like, yeah, you know, we look like all kinds of things.
MARYBETH O’CONNOR: That's right. That's right. This is what recovery looks like, right? So yeah.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I appreciate you for that and for your service. I am, again, All of your contact info, clickable links to your book, both She Recovers and Life Ring websites will be in the show notes and embedded forever. So if anybody ever a year from now clicks on this episode, all of that will be there for them as resources. So I'm sorry, this is ending. It took us so long to get here. But I did want to ask you guys to not forget to visit my website. www.thekandidshop.com. That's Kandid with a K. Listen to an episode or 10. Drop me a review. Share the show with your friends. And until next time, I want everyone out there to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it kandid.