My Boundaries Aren’t Bullshit! Real Talk on Boundaries!

My Boundaries Aren't Bullshit!

Kandidly Kristin:.Hola podcast nation at you, girl, Kandidly, Kristin, and this is the kandid shop. Your number one destination for kandid conversations. Tonight. I am sitting down for a kandid chat about boundaries, what they are, why they're important, how to set them and how to hold them. I am joined for this discussion by executive speaker performer author musician podcast, hosts and catalyst Kellan Fluckiger.

As a coach and keynote speaker Kellan's masterful approach helps people get past old stories, change beliefs, and create a life context to reach goals. That seemed impossible. My next guest is leadership, personal and small business coach and founder of a brave path forward. Liz Calloway, Liz says, boundaries will set you free and I agree wholeheartedly.

So welcome. Welcome, welcome Kellen and Liz to the kandid shop. Welcome. Welcome, welcome.

Kellan Fluckiger: Thank you. Glad to be here. Thanks for having us.

Liz Callaway: Really happy to be here and to share in this conversation grateful for the opportunity and for you holding space for it.

Kandidly Kristin: Bart. Thank you. I am grateful for you both for giving me this time on a Tuesday evening, it seems like forever ago that I last spoke to you guys.

So I'm super glad that this day is here because this is one of my favorite topics. Boundaries has become like the hot topic right now. Everybody's talking about it. It's like the buzz word, but for me, it's always been a thing because until probably my mid thirties. I either didn't have any boundaries or my boundaries were so fluid and just, they were essentially, non-existent saying no standing up for myself was a huge issue for me.

So doing boundary work was important for me personally, and I think it is for everybody. So I think I want to start with defining what boundaries are or are not. And I'm sorry, my throat is not right tonight I'm going to read the definition, air quotes that I got from the internet. And then if each of you could give me your personal definitions of boundaries, that'd be great.

So boundaries can be defined as the limits we set with other people, which indicate what we find acceptable and unacceptable in their behavior toward us. So Liz, you go first, you agree with that? Want to add to that?

Liz Callaway: Yeah. I'd like to add to it. I, I do agree with that. It's quite a terse and technical, but I do agree with it because I boundaries are about good communication and people and you yourself, can't set boundaries or adhere to boundaries without communicating what they are.

So along with all of that comes strong communication.

Kellan Fluckiger: Well, I would take a little bit more general approach. I don't disagree with any of that. I would simply say, boundaries are the context, the frame that you allow and create for your life, with regard to your own beliefs, thoughts, actions, and other people. So it's just, it's the walls. It's the context of how you are and setting them and living with them is a joyful opportunity.

Kandidly Kristin: I agree. So I was digging around on the inner, in a net, looking at stuff about boundaries and. There seem to be, I don't know if they're levels or different types of boundaries. Now, there were five, then it was six. And when I last looked now they're seven. So apparently this, it keeps growing. So roughly they are physical boundaries, sexual boundaries, emotional or mental, spiritual, or religious financial, and material time.

And then the seventh newest one is non-negotiable boundaries. So if each of you could intern with whoever wants to go first is kind of. Briefly talk about each of those. Do you believe that those are the end all and be all types of boundaries? Are there types levels? Is it a spectrum of boundaries? And either you can go for.

Kellan Fluckiger: I I'm happy to go first. So, you know, listing different kinds of boundaries are useful. That's like saying there's different kinds of shoes or shoes I play tennis with and they're shoes I go to church with and their shoes I wear in the house in this Canadians. We don't wear shoes now let's take them off your house shoes.

Right. And so boundaries, I think it's important to use those kinds of distinctions to help people understand that. Across the broad spectrum. There are simply limits to what makes sense and what you choose to allow and whether it's how people talk to you, whether or not they ask you or take your money or your resources or Vie for your affection or attention and all those different things, you could be 57 categories just depends on how granular you want to get.

And again, it is the limits. That you set individually in terms of defining your interactions with other situations and people, so sure. Those are great. Seven and maybe there's some more and maybe there's not

Kandidly Kristin: okay. Got it. And Liz,

Liz Callaway: yeah. And I'll, I'll piggyback on that. I like, I like what you just said, Kellan.

I find that in working with people who have really struggled to set boundaries and, and create that space for their life, That sometimes putting them into those buckets makes it easier for them to identify where they have less structure or where perhaps they need more structure with other people or things that they want to accomplish in their life, whether that's around their goal setting or changing a relationship in their life or whatever that piece is.

So I do love starting out with somebody who's not been strong and setting boundaries to put them in buckets and, and to understand. We might need them in all of those categories, but it takes time and energy to be able to set those boundaries and adhere to them for our best self. I kind of liked the categories.

Kandidly Kristin: Now here's the question for both of you, should boundaries be like, can you have a, to firm a boundary with all these different buckets? Can there be a boundary for a physical boundary there's less stringent than one for say time or. You know what I mean? Is the boundary specific to the type of boundary or is it just on a whole?

This is my boundary, for everything, forever

Kellan Fluckiger: boundaries or whatever you decide there. Like if I have I'm married, I have a wife she's joy and she is Joy, she's all my joy. She's my tight rope of depression. My book about from my journey from darkness, despair, and death to light love and life you'd understand why.

I mean that she's a divine intervention, but anyway, just her boundaries physically are way different than I would have. It's either one of you, you know? And so that, that makes sense or financial boundaries with me are different than I would have with somebody else. Right. And so all of those boundaries that we listed in any number of buckets would be completely different in different situations.

I didn't have any boundaries at all. In fact, my only rule around things was I needed to get what I wanted. Boundaries were sort of irrelevant. What I wanted was comfort, or to use drugs or to do this or that didn't matter. I did what I wanted to do and boundaries where this sort of irrelevant thing that showed up somewhere in somebody else's universe that I tried to negotiate to get what I want.

I don't live that way anymore, but I did for a long time, during the years of depression and so forth in my life when I needed all my external, I needed validation from outside. So boundaries are simply the healthy framework that you finally create, whether you do it when you're young or whether you do it when you're old.

When you figure out they actually helped you. I love whoever said it, boundaries are freedom. They're the freedom to pursue your life in a way that makes sense. That is, that is it's your ability to control the leavers of your relationship and process with other people. So, yeah, they're different for everybody and every situation, as long as you know what they are and enforce them in our clear, like Liz said in communication. It's all good.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay. Okay. And so why do we think, or know that boundaries are as important as they are and why don't more people understand that? Is it because. Setting a boundary, especially like say with a familial boundary of parent that's too pushy or too intrusive. And it's difficult, you know, and the pushback when you've never set boundaries and then you set them and can be difficult for some people.

And so they'd rather just be like, oh, I'll just, you know, I don't want to. So why is it that if you were sitting in front of 50 people that you would say to them, this is why boundaries are so important.

Liz Callaway: Well, if we were talking to a purely Canadian audience, I would say it's because we're probably too nice.

We're going to say that we're sorry,

but sorry, Callan. I had to do it like three hours away from each other. I had to do it. I feel like it's, it's challenging to set boundaries and it's difficult to say no to people. Especially people that we feel obligated to. There is tons of pressure for us in society to have a good family, have great friends, have strong relationships.

And sometimes depending on how we were raised or how we show up in the world or things that have happened to us in our world, that people pleasing peace takes over. And we feel like we can't say no. We feel like we can't say this isn't working for me right now and we need to, re-establish what this is and set that boundary in place.

And it's hard for people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kellan Fluckiger: It is hard for people until it's not and when you come to the place where through whatever process you get to the point where you. Understand truly that your life is yours to create as you wish. And your lack of boundaries of any kind simply prevents you from creating who you want to be in the world.

So if someone I used to allow might mean they don't have time for big, long stories here, but I used to allow kids that have my kids to be very behave, very abusively toward me in terms of language. And I did it because I was frightened and I felt bad about things that had happened in the past during years that I had addiction problems and so forth.

And so when that all changed, what I learned was how to set boundaries nicely, how to say, no, thank you. But I'm not, I'm just not doing it because continuing to allow anyone, family members or others to trample on your boundaries simply means you've lost. Of your ability to create your life. Like you want it to be who you want to be in the world, because you've given that control, whether it's time or money or emotional energy or anything to someone else.

And I have a name for this fungus, and I say it kills more people than COVID and it's WITOT the WITOT fungus and it's spelled W. I. T. O T. And it stands for What I think Others Think. Okay. And the WITOT fungus kills way more people than COVID ever will. Okay. And so that is my quote, one of my questions with clients and people I talk to is, Hey, who's talking here whose voice is saying these things, are you infected with WITOT?

And, and to what degree are you willing to shape your life around? That imagined thing. What I think others think.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, that was my problem for a long time. Phil is the little degree, but not so much. I'm too old now to care seriously. It's like whatever. But so setting boundaries, if, if you're, if, if I had come to either of you before I did my own work with, uh, setting my personal boundaries for my life, with my family, with my, even at work, what.

How would you counsel someone to set boundaries? Are there? I know there is no like guidebook, like you need to do this, this, this, or this, but are there specific things someone needs to do prior to setting boundaries in terms of self work or is the setting boundaries part of the self work live? Does your smiling

Liz Callaway:  It really is part of the self work. I find the people that come to me that are in this place, don't actually recognize that that the largest part of the problem is that they need to set the boundaries. Got it. So life feels out of control. They don't understand what their own values are in their life. So what are their values and action?

What is it that is really important to them? I don't know, like overlooking that because they've got talk, right? So are they, are they overlooking that are they, are they placing all of those other expectations in front of what it is that they really want? So if you were to have come to me, we would start looking at your values.

We would go through some exercises to understand what your values and actions are. What are those, what is it that's really important to you? If you work with me, would understand that my number one value in life is gratitude. I do my very best to live my life from the seat of gratitude. And I also know that when my boundaries are not in place and when I have worked and I'm too stressed out that I am most ungrateful human being on the face of the planet, because when we're in that state of stress, we often move away from our bounds, from our values.

And so we would do that value work. And once you understand what that is, and what's really important to you and in fairness to all of us, It's not something that we're taught to do. We're not taught to sit down and understand what are we, what do we value? What, what lights us up? One of my other values is inclusivity.

If you're in my world, I always want you to feel like you're included. Like you're part of the conversation. Like you're part of my life, part of what's going on. So that leads into boundaries too. And you can be willing to bet ya that if I let inclusivity take over my boundaries or I don't know if I can swear, but

I have let that value get a little bit out of control. Right. And so sometimes our values need boundaries as well. Kellen, I can rant forever. So I'm going to roll.

Kellan Fluckiger: I'm going to be controversial. And I'm going to say the single biggest problem for people not having boundaries is that don't love themselves.

Okay. Self-love is the root of all this you have. People think that choosing to be choosing to sacrifice time, where to serve someone is a badge of honor and it can be, but it's more way more powerful when it comes from a healthy self-love self-love is not self-indulgence it's not being selfish. It's not meaning me, me, me, or me first or any of that crap.

Right. It is a choice to understand that you're a divine being and that you are have value and that you have. Uh, purpose and you have gifts and talents and your healthiest and best way to love and serve with those is to love yourself and somebody that runs around letting people trample over them in any one of those seven or 17 areas is missing.

Uh, sense of self love. And so one of the things I work on first with people that are having trouble achieving any goal or anything else is exploring where in their lives, that lack of worth self love showing up and running the show. We're so busy trying to be seventh graders and get this approval. And you've got an eighth grader running your business, and you've got an eighth grader running your relationships and like,

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. Got it. So. In the evolution of setting boundaries always wonder with the boundaries that I have with people. Should they evolve as you evolve or should they evolve situationally? Like somebody that it's a hard, no, for right now, maybe a year or two from now that hard. No might be maybe. Or does that open up a door to having your boundaries just blown all the shit.

Kellan Fluckiger: I'm going to ask a question. Can I speak first, Liz? Is that okay? Look, I'm going to ask you what is the purpose of the interaction? And you may throw me off the show here. By the time I get done, probably the point, the point is to love and serve that person in their highest and best interest.

And the answers to those questions are not. Okay. If giving someone some kind of temporary fix, so there's affection a cup of coffee or whatever else it might be. And it's not really in their highest and best interest, but in some kind of short-term accommodation or pleasure or whatever convenience that is not serving someone in their highest and best interest.

And from your most intimate relationship to yourself. To your kids, to your parents, to your dysfunctional aunt or uncle, it is ask yourself, am I truly loving this person and serving them in their highest and best interest because that's what I believe I ought to do every time. All the time. No exceptions.

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. Nope. That definitely won't get you thrown off the show expecting something else.

Kandidly Kristin: So, Liz, what do you think about the evolution of boundaries or should they evolve?

Liz Callaway: I can speak from a personal perspective, might have evolved over time. And what I will say with that is that they have evolved over time because I've been more confident in the ones that have been successful with. Okay. So I, and I see this in my clients as well.

I actually, I don't know what the theme of coaching was today for, for you Kellen. But for me it was businesses not loyal. And I am finding that I am putting, assisting my clients and putting boundaries in around the workplace because business isn't

Kandidly Kristin: loyal.

Liz Callaway: Yeah. And so I think there's this interesting piece and we can parachute right into that, that it evolves over time and we get better with it.

So when you stop answering emails until 10 o'clock at night, because you think that you have to keep your job right. When that emergency comes up at work and it's nine o'clock at night and you really need to be on the phone, then, you know what that's. That's okay. To scrub that boundary because you've established and people know that you don't answer anymore, unless it's an emergency, but only until then.

Yeah. But when you want to talk about the next thing,

Kandidly Kristin: let's go. Yeah. Yeah. That was, I was just about to discuss or want to discuss boundaries at work. And I also wanted to talk about the whole. No is a complete answer. You don't have to explain or anything like that. But sometimes though, I feel like it's not an explanation, or I just feel like offering the reason why, like, if I had to cancel something last minute, I don't feel like it's enough just to say, oh, I got.

You know what I mean? And I don't know, that might be a part of my boundary issues come and jumping up, but I all, not always, sometimes it's just the now and now I can't do that. But did you see the video I put up the other day? No, I didn't watch

Kellan Fluckiger: no was a complete sentence.

No, it was a complete sentence anyway. If you feel it to me, the boundary isn't whether or not you offer the explanation, it is the spirit in which you offer the explanation you say no, and you have made a commitment. And you know, that person was depending on you and your internal boundary is I keep my word.

I do what I say. I am, who I seen. One of my personal statements is I am integrity. I do what I say. I am, who I seem with no camouflage duplicity or. That's my statement. Now, if I've given you my word to do something, and then I'm not going to my own boundary means, I got to tell you my commitment to you was this.

So I am renegotiating my commitment with you. This has happened. I'm going to die. My foot fell off, whatever it is. I'm not going to say we've lost the meaning of commitment. Here's what we need when we say yes. If I remember, if I still feel like

if we don't go do something and one of those things, oh, I forgot. Oh, well, this came up or whatever, or, oh, you just pissed me off yesterday. We're just supposed to accept that. Oh, well of course. And you know how we know that because when somebody really wants to convince you they're serious, they'll add a bunch of extra crap.

No, I swear. I'm really

all this garbage. Because the word itself no longer has any meaning. And so we've lost the words of commitment. So your choice about explaining your thing is your own internal boundary with what. Are you keeping your commitments? Did you make one that you feel what I know you were, depending on me, this has happened.

How can I make this? Right? That's your boundary. That's not them going, you know, and thinking the rest. So that has to do with your boundary and the meaning of your work. Okay.

Kandidly Kristin: I love that. Okay. I feel a lot better because that is important to me. Keep my word. And sometimes things just come up or I'm just exhausted.

And I've often said, when I committed to doing this, I hadn't worked 10 hours. I didn't have a major leak at the building that I managed. I didn't have some IDI in their part. Me and I was there all day. So, and that today, now that it's time, I just can't because this has happened and it's, I can't. But I can tomorrow.

Kellan Fluckiger: Well, that

that's really important. I can't do this right now. It doesn't fit in my schedule. I can do it next Thursday. Will that work for you? And then they get to choose yes or no, it works for me and it either does or doesn't and that's their call. So anyway, I'm cool. I'm done.

Kandidly Kristin: I love it. I love it. So Liz. Talk to me about work bounds. And before you start, I want you to talk to me from a, say, an employer or employee say from a management position and then from a subordinate position, because okay. I

Liz Callaway: had to, I'm working with this really great group of leaders and Saskatchewan, right.

I was had two of them today and then another client. And all three of them are in this place. One recently promoted into a director role and she doesn't know how to turn it off. So she puts her kids to bed, but spends five minutes in the bedroom, putting the kids to bed because all she can think about is 60 emails that she has to catch up on.

And so the conversation we had around it today was. You're not present for your family. You go home and you'd work on the computer until 10 o'clock at night. What message do you think you're sending to your team? Your team thinks they can't turn off your team thinks they have to be readily available at all times because you're sending them emails at 10 o'clock at night.

You don't operate in a 24 7 business, but

Kandidly Kristin: this is what I hear when my boss does that. She says. But I didn't, you didn't have to answer it. I just, I thought about it. So I sent it, but yeah, but you know, it comes to my phone, so I thought, and you sent it. So I do feel like I have to answer it because you could have sent it and saved it as a draft and then hit send in the morning.

Liz Callaway: Yeah. And I, I respect that, that perspective. I also know that some people don't know. Having worked with entrepreneurs for so many years, they're often very fast moving and they execute very quickly. Right. And so they have an idea and they get it out and they slam it out in an email and it just, it could go out at three o'clock in the morning.

Right. And it doesn't. And to your boss's point, it doesn't mean they expect a response in the moment. So that's up to us now as the employee to go, okay. My manager has actually told me that there is no expectation around this and I have to take her at her word. And, and at that word, I'm going to go what, I'm going to turn off my work email and my notifications on my email, on my phone at six o'clock at night, or if I have a work phone, this sucker, I'm going to put it in the

drawer. I'm going to turn that shit off and I'm going to be present for my family. And if I feel like I have to complete some work emails on off time, that's okay. Business is busy, but then you decide what is that sandbox that I'm going to play in? And, and I also, what I was really proud of with this client, I just want to share her big win was that she had a week of vacation and she didn't pick up her work phone once.

And that is like in my role, that is a, B F, D, and is a big freaking deal. And, and what does that do that tells all of her direct reports? But it's okay to go on vacation. We don't expect you to be on all the time because the truth is, is that we're better humans. We're better in our personal life. We're better in our business life.

We're better in our partnerships. We're just better to ourselves when we get the time to unplug. And we don't give ourselves permission to do that because we're so afraid. Of losing a job or not being needed or not being valued. Right.

Kellan Fluckiger: Agreeing with you. That's what I think, understanding the employee. If I had to count if I was, if I had a client that was the employee of that, I'd say, look, you get an email at 10 at night or at three in the morning. That's fine. What, what is the story you have around that email? Right? It's a story that you're supposed to do something or what, and if it's unclear your responsibility between now and tomorrow, cause you're going to send me a text tomorrow and telling me what you did is to go talk to your boss and say, when I get an email at three in the morning, what is your expectation?

And so one of the things I teach really strongly is the demonstrating expectations and agreements. Mm. And I tell people, quit living by expectations. Expectations are their assess pool nobody's expectations ever match anybody else's cause we're different. So then go get an agreement. Is it okay if I just completely blow you off and don't even look at it until eight o'clock?

Is that okay if it's not tell me like right. And one of the things. I dunno, Kellen developed the ability to do. I used to have to go. I've testified before Congress. I've spent a lot of time in Washington, DC and the legislature and all kinds of positions. I worked for the minister of energy here. I was an assistant deputy minister for a while in Canada.

I'm dual national, by the way. That's why I was in those countries. And I developed the ability to say anything to anybody. Like I walked into the minister of energy office and yo dude, when I just talked to him like that, right. It is all in, in this self awareness and confidence. So if you go talk to your boss and you say, Hey, do you expect me to handle this at 11 o'clock at night?

Or can I ignore you and come to an agreement? Okay. So we're agreed when you can do whatever you want. If you want to work at three in the morning, that's okay, but you don't want meat. Okay, cool. We're good. And what happens is you get to decide if you want to have,

Kandidly Kristin: that was my question. But if they do expect you to answer,

Liz Callaway: then you have a decision to make as to whether or not that sits within your values and your boundaries.

What is your boundary around that? Where are your values? What is most important to you in this world? And then you get to decide, and that's where the power. Yeah. When you get to decide, because you know your values, you understand your boundaries and nobody gets to mess with those,

Kellan Fluckiger: not even your boss, your boss, then you don't have to worship the job if you're actually in a situation where you are so afraid of losing your job, that you allow.

Yourself to be used in any negative way. And you can decide how negative negative is, but decide I'm allowing this and I'm not going to allow this. And if you, if you need it so bad that you're allowing yourself, then you need to quit now because it's not healthy. So just quit and start over and then figure out a job that you can live with because you're not living with that.

You're suffering under it. Got it.

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. I want to talk a little bit about, about this seventh boundary that literally just popped up. Cause the last time I looked at the levels or types that wasn't there, the non-negotiable boundary, I'm not entirely certain. I know what that is because I don't have many non-negotiable non-negotiables.

Like for me, most things can be talked about I'm CA I'm flexible. I guess I do have some non-negotiables. Let me stop. Let me stop. I do, especially in the relationship boundaries, I do have some non-negotiables, but for the most part, I, is that a thing, a nonnegotiable boundary like forever. This is something I cannot do.

Won't do. This is my hard line in the sand.

Kellan Fluckiger: I hope you have some. I do. Okay.

Kandidly Kristin: I, when I thought about it after I said, I don't have many, I was like

Kellan Fluckiger: decision-making process. There's a decision-making process. They teach in one of the various, I don't know, I've been to a million management retreats and charm schools and all that jazz during the years, I was an executor.

And one of the things we teach you is different decision-making processes. One of the decision-making processes, if you're looking at evaluating alternatives is to figure out what your non-negotiables are. This built this house, you're looking buy a new house or get a new apartment or something. It has to have two bedrooms.

That's a non-negotiable that doesn't have two bedrooms. I'm not going to look at it for three bedrooms or nine bedrooms or whatever your non-negotiable is. And you figure out what you absolutely are not willing to live. Um, it can be in a relationship. It can be money if they're not paying me at least the salary, I'm not doing it.

Okay. And so you better have non-negotiables and you better be able to know what they are and you can have some that are non-negotiable. Absolutely. Then you can have some that are hard wishes, but yeah, you're willing to compromise a little bit as long as you know, what they are. And you're clear what the problem is, because when you go in like all on jello, it's all sort of this squiggly thing.

And then when you get done, you hate yourself, you hate them and they don't even know what happened.

Liz Callaway: So

Kandidly Kristin: true.

Liz Callaway: I think one of the ways that I love to spend non-negotiables is my absolute yes. List. Okay. So what is my absolute? Yes. Right? Because sometimes when you begin setting boundaries, when you're in that beginning stage of learning to do this for yourself, Sometimes those words like non-negotiable are hard, right?

They're hard to hear. They're hard to grasp. Maybe they don't feel right when they, when it first shows up for you because all of this is brand new. And so I often look at what are your absolute yeses? What are the things for you that are like, that are from what is from, for me, I'm putting my kids to bed every night at eight o'clock.

That's an absolute yes. You know what that is. That's a non-negotiable, but it's a more pleasant way sometimes for our brain to start to process how we're going to set those really strong boundaries for ourselves, because I encountered I'm sure you'd agree with this as well with all the work that you've done is sometimes that's really scary and just the change in language can make it a little more palatable and a little easier for us to go.

Oh yeah, shit. I got this.

Kandidly Kristin: I do like that. I always like yeses are easier, so much easier for me to pat to, to digest them hard news. Even

Kellan Fluckiger: when I'm T I'm sorry. I

Kandidly Kristin: interrupted you. Oh, you're fine. You're fine. Go ahead. Go ahead. I interrupted you. No, no, I wasn't about to say anything important believe.

Kellan Fluckiger: Alright, so I have people to try to avoid Nope.

Cause as soon as somebody, if you're, if you're negotiating in any way, shape or form, as soon as someone either feels devalued, attacked or minimalized, they stop listening. So if you're trying to communicate, you get defensive, you get upset, you get whatever. Don't say no, don't say anything that if your goal is effective communication and you're trying to get to a place, then you've got to keep the table open.

So say yes, just say, yes, can we do this? Yes. If this and this, or if we arrange it like this, unless they say, can I cut your arm off or something like that? Something that drastic just say, well, I think. I think yes. And that keeps the energy and the positive momentum. And if they ask you, can I pay you 5 cents an hour?

And he'd say, well, yes. If I get a $50,000 signing bonus. So under which that was, yes. And it's just a way to think about it because remember, as soon as somebody feels. Like the wrong or bad or marginalized, they quit listening, communication stops. They start attacking you, finding all the reasons why you're full of crap or whatever it is.

And the communication has ended. Got

Kandidly Kristin: it. Cause that's, I think part of the problem, what makes it so hard for most people, myself included is that my grandmother always used to say, it's not what you say is how you. And it's the language that, and that's so true callin the minute somebody hears, no, it's, it's a, it's a done deal.

They, they they're mad or they're upset. And so the language that people use, if you guys could just give me some examples of really an easier way. To hold a boundary and it can, you can use any example, any physical, emotional, financial time, 10

Kellan Fluckiger: ways to say no that don't set people off.

Kandidly Kristin: Perfect. That's good.

That's going in the show notes. Okay.

Kellan Fluckiger: And raised to say no that don't piss people off. Here's number one, trade. This will go back and forth. Perfect. Wow. I'm not sure how that would work. Help me a little more with.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah.

Liz Callaway: Yeah, that was a good one. I need some time to think about that. Would it be okay if I got back to you in 24 hours?

Kellan Fluckiger: Okay. Another one was, I can do that, but it will be next Tuesday when that will be complete. I can fit that in my schedule and it will be delivered Tuesday. Will that work with your timetable?

Liz Callaway: Oh Kellen. You're good.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's true. I think for me, in some of those conversations, one of the things I always love to ask is can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Kandidly Kristin: And

Liz Callaway: then you have a minute to breathe.

Kellan Fluckiger: You do. And another flavor of that is I'm not sure. I really understand all the details. So do that one more time. Let me process what you're saying. And again, this is how you say it. So if you do it in a ridiculous way, it's like a, yeah. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Okay. Then you've said, you've said what you mean? Cause your body language communicated. But if you genuinely say, wow, I was not expecting that. Can you, can you tell me a little more? I'm not sure. I'm sure I understand what you're really saying. Okay. And what you're doing is inviting further conversation, no ends the conversation.

And so all of the things are, or, or it either ends the conversation or it starts a war either way. What you're trying to do is continue the conversation and invite them another way you could say, well, wow. So, if that were what we did, how would that affect this element of the whatever else is going on in the agreement?

What you're really saying is gee, how does that affect me? Gee, what would that do to me? But another way to do it as well, there were several elements here. So if we did that here, what would that do to the rest of the elements of this negotiation or conversation or how

Kandidly Kristin: all right. Oh, good, good, good, good, good.

I'm getting all kinds of good stuff.

Liz Callaway: Yeah, I think one of the other ones for me is to Kevin's point is to have it come from a place of curiosity. And this came up in a coaching conversation. The other day was I have some really tight timelines and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to meet this. Can you tell me a little bit more about what it is that you're looking for so that I can understand if that's going to fit in my schedule?

Kandidly Kristin: Good one. Those were good. I don't know another one.

Kellan Fluckiger: I can certainly understand why you want that. I'm not sure it lets me get anything for my side of the table. You got to remember I'm coming from having negotiated hundreds of millions, billions of dollars with contracts over many years. But I would say I can surely understand why you want that.

I'm not sure how that fits in with the needs that we might. Got it. And then what you're doing is inviting them to explain how they think this is good and fair. And if they end up stumbling because they can say, well, it's all tilted toward me. I've moved the entire daughter like this, you know, that's hard for someone to say.

Right. Yeah. It screws you. I know it's just all on me. You know, people generally don't want to say that unless they're being grumpy and these are sort of businessy languages. If you're in personal conversations, it's a little different, so I can give you some of those in a minute. Okay.

Kandidly Kristin: I was going to F list, give me one in a familiar setting.

Liz Callaway: I'm on my own personal familiar,

Kandidly Kristin: just some general ones to change the names, to protect the innocent.

Liz Callaway: Yeah. That is a statement. That's a true statement. I really appreciate that you included me on that invitation. It just, isn't going to work with my schedule that day. Could we maybe have a time to go have a coffee and catch up one to one later?

Kandidly Kristin: Right.

Kellan Fluckiger: Something that I do that we do. My wife, my wife is my business partner. So sometime when we've got time, the literal an absolute miracle that created this whole thing 15 years ago, after I'd been married and divorced three times and in and out of rehab and the whole nine yards probably would be an interesting story.

Divinely piloted down on a cloud and showed up and about 15 years ago in the most crazy way possible. But anyway, so, and she is my business partner. She runs all of our contractors. She's a expert antiques person. She's running an eBay store and antique stalls forever. And just the list is infinite. But anyway, she and I are talking about money.

Uh, she'll want to do something or I'll want to do something, then I'll just wait. Okay. Until there's something she wants to do, she'll ask. And I always say, yeah, I never say no, I always say yes. And what that, and then I, then I'll say then, is it okay if I do this? There's something that I want, that I've been waiting for.

I own a recording studio. I own a video studio. So the gear and the cost of all that crap. Not cheap and blah, blah, blah. You know, the recording studios over there, the basement here's big enough. You need a map. There's studios down there, but anyway, so I should want to do something and I'll just say, yeah, I support you a hundred percent.

I'd love to do that. I'm always asking her, when are you going to launch that skincare line? I want to take this class. That's in England about formulation. Good. When are you going to do that? And so it comes from a place of true support. I actually want her to do all that crap because she's got boatloads of talent and I say, crap, snot, crafts, cool stuff.

And then I use that, not as a negative thing, but too, as a comparative place. Is it okay if I do these things that have been on my list for a while? To do. And then we avoid completely known. And then we have a conversation about whether or not both of them make sense, and if they don't how to sequence it, and it's done from a place of mutual support and no is always better said not now sequencing rather than cutting things off, unless a

Kandidly Kristin: real problem.

Not now. All right. Is, I don't know how many that's been, but

Liz Callaway: I think what I'd like to sort of address as well as we're talking about, like how to say though, is also understanding that we could have things in place that nobody needs to know about. So as an example, I don't really share about my relationship with my family anymore because there was a whole bunch of stuff that blew up when I was married, all that kind of stuff.

I don't, I just don't share that anymore. So it doesn't necessarily have to be about saying no to something or saying no to going out or whatever. That piece you can have these silent boundaries as well, where you just choose not to. And then when they ask you about things, And I actually have this with my in-laws.

She will ask me consistently questions about work-life and whatever. And what I know is that she goes out and talks about my life and everything else to everybody else. And that's not okay with me. So what I've learned to do with her over time is when she asks me about things, it's surface level answers, how's business for you.

It's really great. I landed this great new client. We signed a contract, she starts with me next week. It's been a really great. Okay. And you leave it there. Right? And so you can have silent boundaries. We don't always have to be looking at saying no to things. We can be looking at putting things in place that allow us to just provide a little bit of information.

I always joke about the people that they think they know you really, really well because you give them just enough information where you don't have to unnecessarily overshare. So I think there's a, a different spin on some of this as well.

Kellan Fluckiger: Okay. I a hundred percent support that and I have words for it.

And it's called the level of appropriate disclosure. So there's a level of appropriate disclosure with anything like I've been on lots of podcasts. I had a gal. Who reach work then she's not angel joy, but she's angel angel and she's gotten me 150 podcasts last six months. Cause I asked them and they've asked me about a lot about recovery and depression and addiction and suicide attempts and all the crap that I've written about.

And even with all that, there's a level of appropriate disclosure. There's things I just don't do. And I don't talk about it and I don't talk about not talking about it. I just don't talk about, and that's exactly what you're saying. So just completely within your absolute sovereign, divine, right. As a human being, to have a level of appropriate disclosure that shared only between you and God.

Liz Callaway: Yeah, absolutely. I love that.

Kandidly Kristin: Love that. Oh, this has been so awesome. I can't wait to edit this and get it out because, you know, I know it's been helpful for me and I just show notes and I try not to put too much in the show notes so that people actually listen, but some of the key takeaways are just so good.

I have to I'll give them some, some breadcrumbs, so they'll listen, but this is. Amazing. I appreciate.

Kellan Fluckiger: You're welcome. Even to know I'm interrupting you because even no, I even look at people and say, Hey, I'm not going to tell you that. Are you out of your mind? I mean, I'll even do that and call. The audacity of boundary, like how dare you asking you that you think I'm going to tell you that

Liz Callaway: nice and, and beautiful for somebody like you Kellen.

Who's so confident in being able to set those boundaries and confident in being able to do that and has the personality where you could get away with that. Like, without a doubt, I'm a similar personality where I just sort of call it out. Like it is not everybody feels that comfortable with it. Right. So the alternative is.

Right. I, I, and again, I guess for me, I was go back to that seed of gratitude. So you'll always hear me say if I'm not willing to do something, I really appreciate you thinking of me. This is just, isn't going to work for my schedule right now.

Kellan Fluckiger: I love that answer. It honors, it honors the request. It honors the requester, even though we know people ask other people to do some, to solve their own problems, considering the imposition on the other person.

That's the thing that I'm trying to solve. My problem. And I look around and I see you and your red nose goes Rudolph. To solve my problem, right. Or my red nose or whatever. And so they're trying to solve their problem and when you honor them by seeing, wow, thank you so nice for you to think of me. Can't do that this time.

Maybe there's be another time when that works. And so you've honored him. You've said thank you. And you've done it in a way that says, clearly I can't do that now. Right. And you don't have to be weird or grumpy or call them out or do anything. So I love it. I agree. A hundred percent.

Kandidly Kristin: I love that. We are almost we're at 50 minutes and I try not to go over an hour because my episodes are rebroke rep casts on an internet radio station and they only have an hour slot.

And I hate for the end, the get cut off because the end is when I get my last thoughts and you both have an opportunity to tell my listeners how they can connect with you because. Both of you are amazing, even though you live in Canada, you work with people in the us. Right. Okay. Good. All right. So Liz, I'm going to start with you less thought on this topic of boundaries, which you'd like to leave our guests with and then how they can connect with you.

Liz Callaway: Yeah. What I want to leave them with is good boundaries are about communication and you have to share with people what your boundaries are. And that comes as a result of communicating and expressing your needs and talking about your needs. And not everybody gets that right for you to be able to talk about it with them.

And sometimes a boundary is just a boundary and you don't speak to anybody about it, but to the ones that you love the most, you need to communicate about it in order to make them effective and understand that the people that get the most upset are the ones that have pushed and taken the most advantage.

And that's okay. And the relationship, if it meant anything will be okay. And I'll end that by saying you can find me on Instagram, Facebook, my website, LinkedIn, it's a break path forward or. Thank

Kandidly Kristin: you. That was awesome. Thank you so much for that. That was a great last thought. Kellen. You have to follow that.

So, okay.

Kellan Fluckiger: So I would think that to me, the most important thing is if you're having trouble with boundaries, look inside to yourself, love, like where are you valuing yourself? What is truly important to you? And are you, are you willing to. Except the fact that you're the sovereign creator of your own life.

And what do you want to leave? Do you want to leave a person who was pushed around a lot or someone who was clear, who added value? Who said, yes, you helped when they could and said no, when they couldn't. And it was clear and dependable and loved themselves and loved others and come from that place of light and service.

And so to me, it comes down to, it comes down to self love, self love, recognizing your own worth, and mixing that with your desire to serve and bless the lives of others. In their highest and best interest, not in their short-term need. Then you can find me really easy when you got a weird name, like Kellen Flueckiger I can't hide anybody.

They can't find me. Only one of two things is true. They're either not telling the truth. They're not looking or they're not spelling my name. Right. Right. So as long as you spell my name, right, you can find me anywhere you want. I've got a YouTube channel. I've got Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Tik TOK or some things.

And I've got a lot of music and books, Amazon, Google, thousands of hits on Google cause my old executive, blah, blah, blah. So I'm easy to find, happy to have a convo with anybody, find Serbia or do anything to make your life better. I'm all in.

Kandidly Kristin: Awesome. Thank you. Thank you both. So. All of your contact information with the correct spelling will be in the show notes.

I'm going to put clickable links to both your website, your social media Kellanlin, a couple of your books. Cause I was on your site and I saw a bunch. I was actually on both of your guys' site. That's what I do. Whenever I do an episode, I'd like to get to know my guests a little bit. So all of that will be in the show notes guys.

Most people don't take notes when they listen to podcasts, they listen in the car. So they will be in the show notes. When the episode airs on the website, please visit www.thekandidshop.com as kandid with a K or Facebook and IgE at the Candace shop podcast. Kellanlin live. My middle name is Elizabeth sow. I was like, oh, she's a list too.

But thank you so much for coming. I appreciate you both more than, you know, it's been a long time since we set this episode up and I'm just glad we got it done. I'm glad that people will get to learn about boundaries and hopefully get something from it and start to set their own so they can be free.

Kellan Fluckiger: I want to honor you for the effort and energy you're putting into this podcasting is a labor of love and you put a lot of love and work in this, and I'm grateful for the effort you're making to add good to the world.

So thank you.

Kandidly Kristin: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that more than, you know.

Liz Callaway: Yeah. I, I have nothing more to add to what Kellen said. I wholeheartedly agree and very grateful for both of you. Thanks for the kind of

Kandidly Kristin:  Oh, you're so welcome. So guys, that's the end of this episode, but until the next time as always, I want you all to keep it safe, keep it healthy and keep it kandid!