Swell AI Transcript: Relationships Evolving: A Kandid Chat on Non-Traditional Relationships

Kandidly Kristin Hey podcast family, it is your girl Kandidly Kristin and this is the Kandid Shop, your number one destination for kandid conversations. If you're new to the show, welcome and thanks for tuning in. If you're a returning listener, thanks for your support and welcome back. So today I am sitting down for a kandid chat about the much misunderstood subject of non-traditional relationships. I'm joined for this discussion by two amazing ladies. My first guest is a relationship coach, specializing in non-traditional partnerships and founder of relationships evolving, Gail Lynn. My second guest is non-monogamy relationship coach, licensed therapist and founder of both and coaching, Jess Lynn, No Relation. Welcome, welcome, welcome ladies to the Kandid Shop.

Gayle Lynn  Oh, thank you for having me. 

Jess Lynn Thank you so much.

Kandidly Kristin  I've been looking forward to this chat for a while, so let's just get into it. And I think I like to start by trying to define what non-traditional relationships are. And so I poked around Google and I found a general definition that went a little something like this. Non-traditional relationships can be polyamory or polyfidelity, polygamy, consensual non-monogamy, open relationships, swinging and relationship anarchy, and I had never heard that before. And these are all forms of non-traditional relationships. So do you ladies think that is an accurate definition or would you add anything to it? Jess?

Jess Lynn I wouldn't say it's an inaccurate definition. I think that there's a lot of, there's some crossover there in terms of like things that can be used similarly, I guess. So like in general, I think the term non-traditional relationships or non-monogamy is like kind of the umbrella. And then a bunch of those things go underneath. So like consensual non-monogamy, non-monogamy, ethical non-monogamy, all the same thing. And those other things are typically like underneath the umbrella per se.

Gayle Lynn And Gail, anything to add or subtract from that kind of really broad definition? Yeah, no, it's a great start because what it does is it just defines all the different ways that you can have a non-traditional relationship because there's so many different ways that you can form a relationship between two people. And so that's it's a good start.

Kandidly Kristin Now, before we get into the conversation, I'd like it if each of you could share a little bit about your background and the why of why you became a non-traditional or non-monogamous relationship coach. And Gail, you can go first.

Gayle Lynn Sure. Yeah, for me, this is the quick version. The quick version is my husband came to me wanting to have sex with somebody else. And it pretty much rocked my world because at the time, you know, we were deep into the church. So, you know, the programming was one man, one wife for the rest of your life. And so it began to be something that spiraled almost like an awakening for me into what was really going on in my life and what was going on around us and why he was approaching me. And, you know, basically, he had never had sex with anybody else. And he was just like at this time in his life in his 40s. And he's like, what would it be like to be with another woman? And that's really where the conversation started to go. And so it began a process of really unraveling what our beliefs are and what do we really believe. And so it really started us down that journey. And then being able to experience opening our relationship, being polyamorous, we've been swingers, we've kind of tapped into all of them in a way. So just having that experience and, you know, like I help out with a lifestyle club. That's kind of one of the fun things that I get to do on the side of relationship coaching, because it's just all like minded people that were around and stuff like that. So I'm like their coach down there. And so that's kind of fun. But yeah, so that's because I traveled the path and there were so many different things that we came against, you know, the communication issues, the jealousy, all those things. And we had to just begin tackling them. And we didn't have anybody that would that was there for us. You know, I had no idea that there were coaches out there that could do it. All I knew is I've been down the path and I could definitely help others go down this path in a much easier fluid way than what we did.

Kandidly Kristin Right. Thank you. And Jess?

Jess Lynn Yeah, it's funny. I love listening to other non-monogamous folk stories about this because they're all so similar in a way and yet different. So my kind of quick version of this is a little bit kind of the reverse of what Gail just said in that I was the one that brought this to my husband. And for me, it was really just, you know, just kind of coming across things on, the interwebs as it were, and just reading more and more about, as Gail was saying, what kind of programming we have around relationships, where that comes from. And I just sort of like started examining, do I do what I do and want what I want, believe what I believe because I truly believe that myself or is that just me, you know, sort of trying to like play like the good girl, if you will, and like fulfill what, you know, societal expectations there are of me. And so I kind of like took a look back at my history of relationships. I was definitely what one would call like a serial monogamist from probably 14, 15 until I met my husband. I was constantly in a relationship, all monogamous committed long-term relationships, but one after another after another. And I just, it never made any sense to me why someone would think that just because I like moved on from a relationship to another that I somehow like ceased to love or care about the person that I had been with or that I must not have really loved them or something like that. So, yeah, I just kind of started reading some stuff and brought it to my husband. And part of that also was for me exploring my sexuality as a queer woman. And so that all kind of wrapped up. And yeah, similar thing, right? We started trying to figure stuff out, have conversations, do some reading and listen to podcasts and all that stuff. And, you know, there are people out there and yet there's only so much out there, right? I think that there's a ton of, I mean, they're still lacking, I would say, in terms of like relationship, like couples therapists and such for monogamous folks as well. The couples thing is hard. But I think in this realm, like there's so fewer resources. And similarly, like to what Gail said, I just feel like, you know, with my background as a therapist and a social worker, I've worked with all kinds of people. And I think at the end of the day, what I have found to be probably like the number one, like most helpful thing in working with anyone is just the validation of like having someone feel seen, regardless of like what that means, whatever they're going through, whoever they are, whatever identity. And so that kind of all just kind of mashed together with me between my background as a therapist and then, you know, living this myself and just realizing like, you know, so much of this is about just recognizing people for who they are and that they exist and the way they exist in the world is valid and beautiful and hoping that I could help some people, especially newbies, like getting into this kind of, you know, navigate this in a little bit smoother of a way than I did with little resources. So, yeah.

Kandidly Kristin Thank you both for that and thank you for what you do because that's a great segue into, I wanted to try to find, I'm a stats person, I love data, and I found a February 2023 YouGov poll about relationships and it said, surprisingly, 55% of Americans still prefer completely monogamous relationship, but 34% of folks said their ideal relationship is something other than complete monogamy and people under 45 are far more likely than those older than 45 to be interested in an other than completely monogamous relationship, wherever that falls on the spectrum, I guess. So, my question to you guys is why or what do you think the reason or reasons are that more people are kind of leaning into non-traditional or non-monogamous relationships?

Gayle Lynn And either one of you can go first and take that. I'll take that one, at least to begin, and Jess, well, I'm sure she's really good at picking up and expanding too. So, for me, I see, well, first of all, those are statistics where people are actually telling what maybe more people are actually saying where they're actually at, as far as the relationship goes. I think a lot of this has been happening. It's just been so shunned upon that people were not willing to speak out. So, people might be monogamous, but how many out of those monogamous people are cheating and not being ethical about what's really going on? And so, what we're trying to say is there's a way to do this and actually be ethical in it and create a lot more possibilities in your relationship for love, expansion, joy, and learning about yourself, because you also have the triggers of jealousy and things not always working out, but those are great opportunities. So, for me, I see the younger generation actually taking everything just a little step forward, like they're being more authentic with who they are because we're teaching them to be more authentic, where before it was like, you know, you got to be this good little boy and girl. This is the way, you know, girls should behave, guys, you know, you're not supposed to cry, you know, all of those different things that are the different generations have grown up, and each generation has a layer of that that's been stripped off. And so, that's where I see like the younger generation actually embracing the idea because it makes sense to them. And so, things are evolving, they're slowly and the more, you know, celebrities that come out that they have open relationships, then more people are worth coming forward, you know, and talking about it. I mean, it's fascinating for me, like I'm down at this Lifestyle Club, and I can't tell you, every weekend we have brand new people who are just dipping their toes in to find out what this world is all about. And so, it is, it's growing, and I think it's going to get to that point where it grows really, you know, exponentially, and it's going to be more of a normative thing.

Jess Lynn Okay, and Jess, any thoughts, comments, expansion? Yeah, no, I think so much of what Gail is saying makes sense. I mean, of course, I think that, you know, not to paint like a broad brush, but I think in general, there is something to, you know, norms and expectations and stuff generationally, right? Not to say that like every single member of X generation acts or thinks this way, but I think there is, you know, there are commonalities. And so, I myself am a millennial. And I think that in my generation, it's definitely more common. I find a lot of people my age-ish, and then younger, even. I think people just, the reality is, and this is funny, I think about this a lot when, you know, I'm not, for example, like fully out to my grandmother just because she worries a lot, and I don't need her to worry about anything else. But she essentially, you know, I was going to Svein with one of my other partners, and she kind of said, I think you're going with a man, and that's why you don't want to tell me. But you know what, like, you do whatever you want, I just don't want to hear about it because I don't want to worry. So, like, even with my 85-year-old grandmother, like, she recognized, like, she recognizes that my husband and I are not just with each other, right? Like, no one's ever told her this, like, this is not, you know. But I think, you know, this is not a new concept at all. I think we can, you know, in many ways, like, this is akin to, you know, the queer community, the trans community, like, these people have been doing what we are doing for eons. This is not like a new idea. It's just that, A, there's more people willing to speak out, as, you know, Gail was saying, like, people, more people willing to say, like, okay, you know, I will go to the club once, or I will go, you know, get on this dating app, or whatever, and talk to some people, check this out in a way that feels more free. And I also think that, you know, in addition to more people genuinely, like, maybe seeking this out, or, like, at least seeking out information about it, people then are being more open about it, potentially, than they were before. So, you know, this is not like a, you know, it's not a revolutionary idea. It's just that, you know, we're talking about it more. And there's so many, so many people that have, you know, and I'm sure that if I, like, had a conversation with my grandmother, or my parents, you know, they are not, the concept of swinging is not new to them, you know, those kind of things. It's just, it's, I think it's getting a little more solidified in many ways. There's a lot more education about it. And, you know, people like Gail and myself trying to, you know, just, like, put the word out there and say, like, hey, this is not, like, that odd of a thing. It may be unconventional is the word I like to use, because it's not, you know, traditional, exactly the name of this episode, you know. But, you know, I think people are, in general, especially as generation, younger and younger generations are leaning more into this idea of, like, authenticity and living their truth and being less willing to just take what

Kandidly Kristin society or older generations or government or whomever says, like, they should do with their lives. Right. And that, I think that we're seeing that in younger generations in a bunch of different areas, not just relationships. They're really leaning into their authentic selves and living their life in, by their terms, not anybody else's. So I wanted to ask, because I know there's a bunch of misconceptions, misunderstandings, swirling around out there about a non-traditional relationship style. So what are some of the more common ones? And if each of you could kind of, not debunk them, but kind of, I always want to put out information and dispel misinformation. So, Gail? Okay. Sure. Yeah. Well, I guess, do you have something specific that you're looking at that you want to keep on? Well, I think the most common thing that I hear when we were talking about polyamory or swinging is that it's all about the sex. You just want to have sex with a bunch of

Gayle Lynn different people. Okay. So that can be one way. I mean, that is what some people do, but it's not necessarily, especially in polyamory, it isn't. So let's start, let's kind of start from the top, the bigger umbrella, which is basically saying an open relationship. Would you agree with that, Jess? Yeah. I think open relationship and like non-monogamy are not traditional. Yeah. So they're pretty synonymous in a way. And so, you know, basically that you're just going to be agreeing that, you know, you guys are going to be seeing other people in some form or another. And that's where you guys get, the couple actually gets to start deciding what it's going to look like. So you can go anywhere from choosing to swing where you're going to do it together. Right. And sometimes that is just purely for the sex and for pleasure there. They don't want to form an emotional attachment. Like there will be agreements like no kissing, no fluid swapping. Like it can be really defined down. However, the couple feels comfortable with what they want to do. So that one is, it's a little bit more about the sex. Now an open relationship, typically, like if a husband and wife open it up and they don't want to go swinging, they want to do it separate. Right. So they're going to start maybe seeing other people or dating other people. And again, it becomes, what are your agreements? What do you guys want to do? It's not full on, go play because what they're trying to do is they're still trying to honor the primary relationship. Okay. So that might be, husband goes on a date with a girl like once a week, or it could be once a month, or it could be once a quarter. Like it just really depends on what works for everybody else. And typically with that, they're wanting not quite as much of an emotional attachment. And so some people will be like, well, you can't date the same person more than once. You know, so there's a lot of that. So it's really, it comes down to you got to design it for yourself. But then once you start getting into like polyamory, that's when you're starting to make more of a connection, an emotional connection. Because if you break it down, it's polyamory. So that's, you know, people look at it and they judge it for something. And it's like, you know, it's not like you're going to be able to do it. It's not like you're going to be able to do it. And so you're going to have to be able to do it. And so that's where you have this capacity where you are loving more than one person. And there's often an agreement between everybody who's involved in the relationship. Is it going to be, you know, just the four of you, that's, you know, people look at it and they judge it for something. And it's like,

Kandidly Kristin you don't understand it can be anything. So what I'm really hearing is like the basis of all of it is really healthy communication between the couple that's looking into a non-traditional relationship, honest, healthy communication, and some boundary setting, I guess,

Gayle Lynn and how they define what it looks like for them. Yeah, absolutely. And the communication is key. That's where I can tell you what we went three, four hours a day. Sometimes it became a part-time job. And that's why I'm like really big on, okay, let's get our communication down so we can

Jess Lynn really know where we're going with this. Okay. Now, I was just add to that, that, you know, I think that's definitely one of the bigger ones. You know, as you said, Kristin, that it's all about sex. And like, my reaction to that is always either first of all, maybe it is all about sex. And so what? Why is that? Right. Like, why is this a bad thing for people to want to have different experiences to want to experience pleasure? Like, that's not an issue. And then secondarily, like, I think many people, and not that this is a problem, if this isn't part of the dynamic, but I think, you know, I've, I've been to some lifestyle clubs, one of my partners came into nominogamy through swinging and, and most of the time, they wanted to have like some kind of like, conversation or, you know, like, connection, maybe not in like a romantic way, or maybe not even in a like friends that we hang out outside of here kind of way. But, you know, I think that like, all of this is about human connection. And sometimes that human connection is sex. And why do we need to shame people for that? Like, what is the issue? As long as everyone's consenting

Gayle Lynn adults, then? Yeah. And, and to it comes down to like, the person, like some people need an emotional connection. So they're actually going to need to form that before they even want to have sex, or it's just not there for them. And then there's other other people who can just like, jump in and have sex, you know, so it's really depending on the person where they want to go

Kandidly Kristin with everything. So how do you, if you've chosen a non traditional relationship lifestyle, navigate all the societal and cultural pressures that I'm sure come up for you on a day to day basis? How can, how do you do that?

Jess Lynn Yeah, well, sometimes with great difficulty. And sometimes not. You know, I definitely don't want to paint like a, you know, entirely negative picture. I would be, I would be dishonest if I said that, you know, like everyone in my life, for example, has like, accepted this with open arms, and is jumping for joy and like, thinks this is the best thing ever. Like, a lot of people are very supportive of me and us and some of my older family members, not so much. And how do you navigate? I mean, it's hard, I think everybody has to kind of decide and like draw a line. So this would be like an example of a boundary, a personal boundary, right? Where like, you get to decide, you know, as an individual human in this lifestyle, whether or not you want to come out, so to speak, or share about this with other people in your life or not. You know, obviously, here, Gail and I are talking to you. So it's a little bit more obvious. But I think something I've learned along the way is I've always been like an open book type person, like I've never had concern about like, what people think about me sharing, you know, my emotions, opinions, whatever. But for me, there has come points where with certain people, either in my family or like, societally, I just, I get to choose what I'm willing to, basically what I'm willing to, to hold space for, right? So if I want to discuss this with people, and I'm willing to hear what they have to say, even if I don't agree with them, then that's fine. And if there are certain people or spaces in which I don't feel like that, that is something I have like the mental or emotional energy for right now, then they don't have to, right? It is hard, people will, people make all kinds of assumptions, or judge people, you know, bring morality into this a lot, which I can, I understand, I can empathize with where they're coming from. And yet it very much confuses me because, you know, I'm pretty sure that two, three, four people in a relationship get to decide if what they're doing works for them or not. But, you know, perhaps that's a new concept. But yeah, I think there's a lot. And so I think it does help to find other people, communities, spaces, that people are not going to judge as much, or at least you'll be met with more of an open mind. And I will say, to be fair, I have been pleasantly surprised at some of the reactions that I've gotten like from strangers, whether that's like, I don't know, I went to get pedicure for pride month and got the polyamorous flag colors. And the nail tech asked me why these colors and I told her and she was totally fine. And cool. I've mentioned things casually to like, my the person who waxes my eyebrows or like, question your own target. Saying like using the word partners plural, things like that. And, and surprisingly, I have gotten a lot of people be like, huh, cool. So I just try very hard to like, in my brain, like, weigh those, you know, yes, there are going to always be people on the internet, people in your family, people in the neighborhood that don't get it, don't want to get it, don't want to understand, aren't going to have open minds. And there are a lot of people who, given the chance, are willing to hear about things or at minimum, you know, meet you with mutual respect, just as a human.

Gayle Lynn Awesome. Yeah, I, you know, I totally get it, Jess, because this, I mean, it was such a process, even for me that there were days I'm just like, can I do this? Can I do this? You know, especially coming out as a coach doing it, it brought it to another level, right. But even before that, you know, when my husband and I would introduce it, or like, mention it to my sister, or we even told our kids, like every time we were able to do that, it was like another little piece for us to feel a little bit more freer about who we were, and what we were doing. And, and then you just have to be okay, if somebody doesn't agree with it, it's only because they haven't unraveled all of those shame pieces that we ended up unraveling as we worked through this and the belief systems, they just haven't had the opportunity to do it. However, when you tell somebody, that's like a little seed that's planted that gives them an opportunity to think about it, and to maybe heal something in their life. Yeah. So do either of you think that being in a non-traditional relationship requires a different set of skills or mindset compared to a traditional, all monogamous relationship? Yeah, I would, I would say there's different skills there. And the big one is being communication. You know, a lot of times in a monogamous relationship, you can let a lot of things slide. Well, when you're in this kind of, when you have multiple partners and different personalities that are all at play at once, it brings up a lot more. And so that skill of communicating effectively and reflecting back and understanding what's going on is, it becomes heightened. And I can tell you, I can almost spot somebody who might be in a non-traditional relationship because of the way they communicate with each other. They're just so much more open and honest and willing to tell their truth than other people who just haven't learned that.

Jess Lynn Yeah, I mean, that's a, I think for me, that's a hard question. I think it really is kind of like the skills themselves are the same, like on a base level, right? But there's just like a heightened need for things. I mean, like, ideally, right, people who are monogamous do communicate, right, at a high level, we would hope. But as Gail said, like, it is easier, not because, not necessarily because people don't care about the partner or something like that, but it is easier to not address everything, right? Because there's only one other person. So it's you and them. And if they don't bring it up and you don't bring it up, you know, and it gets brought up. When you have, you know, three, four, however many people people that you need to like be transparent with and check in with people about, or check in with different people about different things, then, you know, things get brought up, they have to be. Otherwise, somebody eventually is gonna, you know, have their feelings hurt or feel like they're being ignored or feel like their needs aren't being met. So I think that, you know, there's, I do think, and I've said this to many people, like, I think a lot of, there are a lot of resources out there, whether it's like resources from coaches, like Gail and myself, or books, podcasts, etc. I think there are a lot of things that monogamous couples could benefit from hearing, whether that's about communication, attachment styles, bids for connection, how to show up for your partner. Like, I think that the skills maybe are like, theoretically the same, but it's kind of like, you're almost forced in a way to have a, to like have a heightened level of certain things in order to do this in like a way that feels healthy. I think if you didn't, you could still be doing it, but it wouldn't be feeling very good to people. So yeah, it's, it's, I mean, a lot of talking, and then some more talking, and then sometimes we talk about our feelings, and then also our emotions, and you know, it's just like a

Kandidly Kristin thing. So that's actually a really great segue, because I'm thinking about a couple, or however many people in a non-traditional relationship, and how they navigate those more complex emotions. You talked about a little bit about jealousy earlier, insecurity. So how does that work in a non-traditional relationship? Because I can see jealousy, at least for me, as being a huge thing.

Jess Lynn Yeah, so I can, I'll speak to this and then Gail, absolutely. Share your thoughts. So yeah, I mean, I think another sometimes, what do you call, misconception as we're talking about that people have is that either like people who are in non- monogamous, non-traditional relationships, like don't experience jealousy, like we're somehow immune, or that we do, and it's this like horrible, horrific thing, and we just shove it down or something. So in case anyone wondered that, we do experience jealousy. And I think it's, for me, like this is a piece where I like use my clinical background, is like, it's about, and I try to, you know, do this for myself with, sometimes it's harder than other times, and also teach other people that there's nothing wrong with feeling jealousy. It's a human emotion, just like any other human emotion. It's a chemical reaction in your body, right? And it's all, we can't control our emotions, any of them, or else like I would not have a job as a therapist, right? People would just say, I don't want to be sad anymore, and then stop being sad. So I think I try to reframe it as like, okay, this feeling that feels like jealousy is coming up for me around X, what is it telling me? Like what is going on? Like what is the story I'm telling myself about this? And what does that like tell me in terms of like what needs I might have that aren't being met? So like if I'm jealous that I'm, if my husband goes on a date and comes home and tells me about this woman he went out with and I'm feeling jealousy around something, whether that's like, he shows me a picture in her looks, or if I'm feeling jealous about the time they spent together or what they did together, that's probably just cluing me into like, hey, there's this, you're feeling some kind of way about this, there's nothing you can do about the feeling. So what are we going to do about our reaction? So we could just shove it down. And I'm not going to lie and say I've never done that. But really, it's about, hey, like, when you said X, Y, Z about this person you went out with, I felt this way. I'm wondering, like, do you feel like maybe you and I could have some like intentional date night time soon? I think maybe I'm feeling a little bit left out, or I'm feeling a little bit like our physical intimacy has been lacking lately, or whatever it is, just that, you know, it's okay. Sometimes we don't want to admit to things that we classify as like negative feelings. I personally don't believe that that's a thing. I think feelings are just feelings, emotions are just emotions. And it's about the reaction. And so what do you do with that thing? Do you communicate it to your partner? If so, how and like, what space can we open up from there to like, get your needs met and their needs met? So but yeah, I mean, I've absolutely I had one experience where I was at home with my one of my partners, and we're just watching a movie on the couch. And my husband is on a date. And at some point, I don't know why I just started feeling some kind of way. And now I'm sitting on the couch at my house crying to my partner, that I'm jealous of something that I don't know, because my husband's out with this woman. And he's like, this is fine. Like you're allowed to have emotions. And I'm like, this is such a weird situation. But it's fine. And like, he's able to hold space for that for me, so that I could hold space for that for me. And so then my husband came home, we could talk about it. It's not always that perfect and magical. But,

Gayle Lynn but you know, it happens and it's okay. Okay. Yeah, it's really kind of becoming aware of, of what it is, because, you know, like in a monogamous relationship, there's jealousy that it might be or more like envy type, kind of attitudes of your spouse is doing something that you want to do, or you're, you're thinking that they're doing something that's way more fun, and you want to be doing the same thing, right? You might see that a little bit. You see it in monogamy. But what happens is when you bring it in, and it has to do with your another person, it becomes very much more elevated, because it's going to trigger a lot more in you, it's going to start triggering, probably some kind of safety and security that that you know, somebody might take your spouse, and I'm not going to have my safety and security or feeling abandoned, you know, so it's really starting to touch on these different points that are just an opportunity really for you to feel it. And it's not it's not a bad thing. These are actually really, really good things to have happen because you start to gain this awareness that that it's happening within you, you're starting to feel it. And then this, and this is what we do as coaches is we teach you how to be with that, how to feel that how to let that emotion go through and just recognizing it for what it is. And so it actually becomes a very good tool that you have in your life. And that jealousy is it's like an onion, so it's going to have several layers of different things that it's going to look like. But it's actually just an opportunity to start to recognize that and understand it. And people oftentimes will come for coaching because they want to get rid of jealousy, they just like, I want to be I want to have compersion, I don't want jealousy, I just want

Kandidly Kristin it out of my life. And you may be able to start, it's never going to be out of your life. Right. But you may be able to start understanding and being able to understand your reaction of what's going on, which makes it a whole lot better. Yeah. So I have a question for each of you. Because Jess, you mentioned that you were queer. Or did I not hear you say that? So my question is, how do each of you as coaches incorporate diversity, intersectionality, inclusivity in your in your practice when you're working with clients in a non-traditional

Jess Lynn relationship lifestyle? And Jess, you can go first. Yeah, sure. So this is, I appreciate you asking this question, because it's very important. And something important to me, as you know, as a queer person, and also as a social worker, by background. So yeah, I mean, I think one big piece, obviously, and you know, when we talk about diversity, there's so many facets to that, right? I think, obviously, in terms of gender identity and sexuality, that's a that's a very big overlapping piece here, where, you know, some people potentially open up a relationship or get into these types of relationships structures because they want to explore their sexuality. And I think that there's so much I mean, I could talk about a million things, but I think one big thing for me, and my husband as well, is that there's so much behind like, bisexual erasure in like, society as a whole and in the queer community. And, you know, there are, just because a person or a setting or a coach or whatever is non-monogamous or in a non-traditional relationship setting doesn't mean that they can't still have biases around these things. And so I think it's important to me to always, you know, check in with people like when I get new clients, like, you know, to the extent that they're comfortable telling me like, what is your what, how do you identify? What's your sexual orientation? What does that look like to you? Right? Because I don't want to be speaking to, you know, a male identifying person and just assuming that all of his partners are female, right? Or things like that. So that's one big piece. And then the other thing I'll just say briefly, and I could talk about this forever, but a big thing I'll say that I have learned very fairly recently is this idea around a lot of times what I do, you'll notice, I believe in my bio, hopefully I changed the one I sent to you. But I used to kind of label myself as an ethical, non-monogamous coach. And I have since learned a lot around, you know, this idea of like, why do we put the word ethical in front? So we really put it there because we want to distinguish it from cheating, right? Like we understand that as the definition, being non-monogamous, technically cheating could like be, you know, twisted into that. But I'm pretty sure that people understand, like when we are talking about non-monogamous relationships, we're talking about this open, transparent thing, right? So something I have recently done actually is taken away that word ethical from my title, from like the content I share, because it can insinuate in a way that that non-monogamy, before we called it that, so if we go back to, in trying to like decolonize these concepts, so many of historically polyamorous or whatever word we want to use, like open relationship type cultures, so many of those cultures are, you know, non-white individuals. And so to place this like ethically, ethically, it kind of can insinuate that the word, that non-monogamy in general is like, oh, the way we do it is ethical, but the way that we've done it for centuries is not, right? And that specifically is targeting, I'm talking about minority populations. And so that's another like thing, like I said, I could talk about forever, but that's something that I recently have, you know, taken some education on myself

Gayle Lynn around to make sure that like I'm not spreading, you know, these kind of colonized like viewpoints as well. Thank you. Gail? You know, I, I really like your take, Jess, especially on the ethical piece, you know, because I get that when you start calling it that, it's, it does get into a space of almost, it has a judgment around it, or better than this or that and stuff like that. So I do like your viewpoint on that, Jess. I think that's really good. But, you know, for me being a coach, like anybody that I take in, I'm there to be a safe space for them, which means they get to be whoever they want to be, whoever they're becoming. I am there to hold that space for them to be able to come and feel very comfortable with me. So, you know, making sure that, that they do feel included in who they are and honored for who they are and honored for the journey that they're on and what they're taking.

Kandidly Kristin Is super important for me. So what advice would each of you give to someone who is listening to this episode and who is considering exploring a non-traditional relationship for the first time?

Gayle Lynn That's piece of advice. I take it slow, right? Take it slow and a lot of curiosity around it. A lot of people will kind of want to get into it and they want to jump the gun and just, you know, go out the door and have some sex and, you know, do that. But there's a lot to consider there. And so just take your time. It's not a race.

Jess Lynn Yeah, I would definitely say that's probably like, I would think and hope that that's most coaches in this realms kind of advice because, you know, I wouldn't, I can't say that I didn't do that at all. Or, you know, I think it's so easy when we finally feel like we have this like lease on life, so to speak, like, okay, I can just like, I can do the thing. I had this conversation with my partner, they're open to it and I'm going to go whatever, like Gail said, go have the sex, go find a partner, go date women, whatever. And it's so easy to get lost in that because once you, you know, of course, barring not great experiences, when you have a good positive experience there in that space, there's so much that like that feels like freeing and authentic and you're living your truth and all this stuff. And sometimes we can easily rush to the point where like we haven't really talked about relationship agreements or we really haven't, you know, discussed at least generally some of the what ifs or things that can come up and maybe then if this is something that you're exploring separately, we don't know like what our partner would say or think in a certain situation. And I think it's also easy to like find, especially if you find someone who like has been in the lifestyle for a long time, it's easy to assume that like, oh, they must know what they're doing, right? And I will just say that we, from personal experience, we should just not make assumptions about those things, right? Yeah, that was my first poly relationship drama was just that, you know, oh, I think this person like must know what they're doing, right? And so if they think this is okay, it must be okay, right? So I think, you know, there's no need to rush and there's no need to like, it's okay, you're gonna feel it. But we don't have to make assumptions about like, oh, wow, I'm so new. Therefore, I don't know anything, or no one's gonna want to go on a date with me or hook up with me or whatever. This is all just about humans. And we're all at that same level as humans. And sure, some people have maybe been in the lifestyle for longer had relationships or what have you. But I think one of the most important things is to just try your best and you're not going to be perfect to not judge yourself like just let yourself explore things. Just let yourself you know, whatever that is listening to this podcast, for example, other podcasts, reading, reading articles, working with a coach, like, just let yourself exist as you are like in that space, and you'll figure it out,

Kandidly Kristin you will figure it out one way or the other. Now we've talked primarily about couples. And I wanted to ask you, what if you are a single individual who is interested in entering a non traditional relationship with a couple? How is that? What kind of advice would you give to that individual? This is not a couple. This is just a person who's like, I'm really interested in maybe, you know, entering into a non traditional relationship with a couple.

Gayle Lynn Is the advice any different? I know that the advice really isn't any different for me, just might have some thoughts on it. Besides, you know, now you're dealing with three people. And so it's just, again, the communication and understanding, you know, where and what you really want to create in the relationship, you know, and what does that look like, you know, how much time who plays with who, you know, all those kinds of kinds of things that you you can start getting into. So again, it just becomes communication. And what do we want to

Jess Lynn create, you get to create whatever you want. It doesn't have to look any specific way. Yeah, I think, I think that's good. I think that I agree that like the advice itself isn't different in terms of like not rushing and letting yourself be and all those kind of things. I think there are individuals, and I've worked with some who are what we would consider solo polyamorous, meaning they have multiple romantic and or sexual relationships without the desire to have what we would call like a primary partner or a nesting partner, someone they live with. And that's awesome. There are people who, as you said, Kristin, like want to enter a dynamic with a couple, I think, in terms of, you know, the, the advice being the same in terms of like not rushing. I think another important thing around not rushing as an individual wanting to join a couple is just to not rush in terms of, okay, I want to be with a couple, this couple wants to bring, you know, wants to have this experience with another single person. Let's just jump in and do that. I really think it's important to, you know, I think, are there some people out there that give us all of that rep? Yes, absolutely. Just as there are monogamous people who are toxic, you know, there are non-monogamous people who are toxic. And I think as a single individual joining an already established relationship, I would say that the don't rushing piece speaks more to, you know, cultivate a friendship, whatever, you know, kind of connection you're looking for with both of those people, right? Don't just, I don't know what the right word, like settle or like force yourself, you know, you really connect with the husband, but you haven't had much time alone, you know, just don't rush in that, like, keep hold the boundaries that you have for you and express what you need, right? And like Gail said, it can look like whatever you want. And, and that's the beautiful thing is like, you get to say, you know, this is what feels comfortable for me. And, you know, just like with any other form of relationship, it's possible that that those things might not align, you know, maybe the couple only wants to play with you together. And maybe you would like to have some sort of individual time as well. And they're not open to that. That's okay. But you both get, you know, you get to decide if that's something you want to move forward with. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of solo people. And, and, you know, you mentioned relationship anarchy in the beginning, that's what relationship anarchy is about. You know, just not having this concept of like rules are being beholden to someone asking permission for things, and just kind of, you know, doing what you want. So yeah, I mean, same advice, just, you know, look out for you and, you know, take your time with it.

Gayle Lynn So ladies, what as non-traditional or non-monogamous relationship coaches, how do you hope to impact this area, you know, long term? What are your goals and aspirations? You know, for me, I just want people to really live and enjoy their lives. And if this is something that can add to their lives, then why not? You know, and another reason that, you know, I'm out here, Jess is out here, we're always talking about this is because we want people to know that it's okay. It's not a bad thing. It's, it's, it's really where you want to start unpacking your life and what you want to believe. And then you get to begin to, you know, like I said, add to

Jess Lynn your life and live how you authentically want to live. And for me, that's what I want. I just, I want people to, you know, live their joy. Nice. Jess? Yeah, I would agree with all of that. And I think for me, a big piece of this is, you know, I guess I shouldn't say no one, but you know, I don't think anyone is out here who is practicing all of this honestly and ethically trying to like convert people or, you know, suggest that non-monogamy or polyamory or open relationship or whatever words like feel right to you is like inherently better than monogamy. That's not at all what anyone's trying to say. I think, you know, to Gail's point about like just wanting people to just live their lives the way they want to live their lives. I think, you know, I'm, I have friends and family members who are, you know, very, very happy over joyously so in monogamous relationships. And I love that for them. And if that is what makes them happy, then that's what they should do. And I think my big thing is like just trying to like share information, like put a face or a voice to what this really looks like, you know, in real life and just for these relationship structures to be seen as equally valid as monogamy. That's all I'm after. You know, I'm not trying to say it's better, worse, or otherwise. I think people can do both non-traditional and traditional relationships and in very healthy positive ways and not so healthy ways. And I don't think that that's inherent to the structure itself. And so, yeah, I just I'm trying my best to, you know, kind of get out there, talk about this stuff, reduce a stigma and help people to live what their like

Gayle Lynn relationship dreams look like, whatever that means. Yeah, you know, Jess, you have a really good point when you say all relationships are equal. And I always tell people this, every pathway is sacred. It's just, are you choosing the pathway or is the pathway being chosen for you? Because that's just what you're expected to do. And so for me, it's like, if you want to be on a monogamous pathway, that's sacred because you're going very deep with that person. But is that what you're choosing? So really, look, what am I choosing? What kind of relationship

Kandidly Kristin would I really want to choose and not be chosen for me? Yes, I love both of your answers and both of you are giving people resources, someone to reach out to where a lot of that hasn't existed in the past or at least not that I'm aware of. So to that point, I'd like each of you to share how my listeners can connect with you. Gail, you can go first.

Gayle Lynn So my website is relationshipsevolving.com. So just think, relationships are always evolving. So you can go on there and you can find some more information. You can book just a no cost initial consultation. And we can connect with each other, find out if for each other's jam, you know, because you want to feel comfortable with the person you're working with. And and stuff because it is it's a very vulnerable space. So that that piece is very important. So that's one way to do it. You can also find me I am on Facebook relationships evolving. Same with Instagram. So you can kind of I'm not on social media a ton. But the best way to get me is

Jess Lynn through the website and just book a call. Jess? Yeah. So I do have a website. It's a baby website, but there will be more coming. So it's both and coaching.com B O T H A N D coaching.com. And so that is in the works more so but you can contact you can contact me through their email me through there. And then I would say probably my my biggest platform right now is on Facebook, I do have a private group coming up on like 200 members now, I think. So lots of people in this group that like get it there's people, you know, from anywhere from like, I'm potentially curious in this to I've been doing this for a decade. So that's called non monogamous newbies. And then if you search it, I promise it will come up. There's no other group by that name. And same on Instagram. It's at non monogamous underscore newbies. And yeah, that's like a good way to like get a feel for kind of me and you know, what it is I do and same as gal, you know, you can book a free console call and all that kind of stuff. Because like she said, we want you to feel comfy, you know, and sharing all this stuff with us. So yeah, definitely hit me up. I'd love

Kandidly Kristin to chat with anyone. Ladies, thank you both for your time, your observations, your sharing and vulnerability and authenticity and telling your stories. And thank you for what you do in the relationship coaching space, because there's going to be I foresee a bigger need for non traditional lifestyles or relationship coaches, as you know, we move further and further down the line as people come of age and starting to recognize that there's more than one way to skin a cat. So thank you. Thank you, Kristin. I think it was fun. Absolutely. Thank you. So guys, both gal and justice contact info, their website links will be in the show notes. And I don't want you guys to forget to visit my website at www.thecandichopkandidwithaK listen to an episode or four, drop me a review and share the show with your friends. And until the next time we meet, I want everyone to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it kandid.