When The Hood Comes Off: A Kandid Chat on Racism & Resistance in The Digital Age

Kandidly Kristin: Hey, hey, hey, podcast family. It is your girl, Kandidly Kristin, and this is The KandidShop, your number one destination for candid conversations. If you're new here, welcome to the show. And if you're a returning listener, welcome back and thank you for your support. So I am really excited to have with me today filmmaker, writer, professor, director of the Digital Race Lab, and author of the critically acclaimed book, When the Hood Comes Off, Racism and Resistance in the Digital Age, Dr. Robert Eschmann. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Dr. Robert, to the Candid Shop.

Kandidly Kristin: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. Looking forward to talking with you.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: As

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, so I was born and raised in Chicago, from the north side, a neighborhood called East Rogers Park. We used to call it the North Pole. You know, I, you know, I graduated from Chicago Public Schools. I'm someone who What drove me to academia and to being a researcher is seeing and reading about or seeing disparities in public school funding, just my own experiences as a kid, and then reading about the connections between inequality in education and, you know, later economic inequality or You know, and it just made me think about education as a education reform as a as a tool for organizing in a black community and one of the many ways that we can engage in fighting racism right at a structural level. And so that, you know, that's who I am is that the work that I do for me is very tied to, you know, a mission of wanting black folks to be free and being tired of, you know, the ways that we've been beaten down over the years and, and really being inspired by the ways that our communities have come together to do the work and that I'm, you know, I'm always proud and inspired by folks who are on the ground and, you know, working and fighting to make change.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yes, same here. So your book, I have a copy. I haven't gotten through all of it. But tell me what inspired you to write it. Like, was there a precipitating event or moment where you said, huh, I need to kind of explore this digital age as it impacts racism and resistance?

Kandidly Kristin: That's a great question. I think it was not one event. It was more so a string of events throughout my life that kind of led to me realizing that this is a story that that needs to be told. You know, I opened the book talking about the first time that I was called the N word and how that was just online playing video games. This is an experience I had when I was younger. And, you know, it just left me with the question of, right, what does racism online tell us about racism in the real world? Should I be looking at people sideways who play this game? Online, the norm is to use the N-word like that, right? Right. And so this is something that's personal and not a research experience. And then when I first got to grad school, one of the first PhD classes I took was the social meaning of race. And in that class, we read a book called Racism Without Racist by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, where it talked about subtle racism or colorblind racism as being the dominant form of racism. And, you know, really a powerful analysis of the ways that racism, when it's structural, it does not require people to have hate in their hearts, to yell out the N-word in order to maintain racial boundaries, right? And so really, it's a powerful analysis, but it also made me think, you know, this doesn't quite fit with my experiences on the internet, where people are much more likely to pop off with some explicit racism than in my personal experiences in face-to-face settings. And so that really led me down a path and the beginnings of an investigation. What is distinct about communication online? What is different about the ways that we talk about race online? What makes those conversations different? And then what are the effects that it has on folks of color, on society, that you have this ugliness that's taking place? online. And so really that is, I said that, you know, those two things mark the beginning of my thinking. But then really the study began when I heard about a campus, a college campus, where a campus-based website had popped up. okay it anonymized student comments so that they could have discussions without their names being attached but you had to be a student to post to it and this website just turned into a horribly racist website that that you know students could not believe that you know that this was going on on campus that the people who were on their campus felt um These ways about students on campus. So for example, one post talked about why there's so many black people in the library if I want to hear right if I want to hear, you know, kind of that, you know, like the Black people talk, I'll go to the, you know, to the ghetto. And right, like, what message does that send to Black students on campus to know that when they're in a library, people are listening to them and thinking, oh, you don't belong here. And so that is really where I started the study is I wanted to talk to students of color on this campus about their experiences with race, both in person and online, to really try and make some sense of, you know, what seemed to be a contradiction.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Gotcha, gotcha. And in those questions to these students, was there something that jumped out at you in terms of the way they experience racism in a digital space versus in the real world?

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, I think that not everyone was aware of how race was impacting their lives in the real world. Yet some folks who are students of color who were just, they were happy. did not feel like they were experiencing racism. When they did see racism, they minimized it and saw it as being, oh, this is, you know, a kind of an outlier. This is not characterized our campus or our university. And it wasn't until the website that they began to realize, like, wow, racism is still here. I thought this was fine. Right. And so I think for some people it was a wake up call to realize that the world is not as friendly as we thought it was. For other people who, you know, had the understood, right, who were able to see and interpret and understand subtle forms of racism, like microaggressions, they weren't surprised and they use it as evidence. Like, look, I told y'all, you weren't listening to me. Now you see it and stop, right, stop telling me that I'm crazy. for complaining about racism on this campus. And so I think that, you know, like to see that distinction that, you know, it's alarming for all of us, but it has a different impact on us, right? Like if I see a video of police violence, it is horrifying to me, but it's also not surprising to me because I've been, you know, seeing and hearing about police violence my whole life. But then for folks who did not know that police acted that way, folks who really believe the myth that they're here to serve and protect, those videos can be, you know, can really, you know, change their world, change their worldview.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Right. All right. So, Dr. Rob, I'm going to call you Dr. Rob. How do you feel that technology, social media, the media has had and will shape the dynamics and discussions about race and resistance?

Kandidly Kristin: You know, I think that for a long time, conversations about race have been taboo. I think that the literature, right, I think that Black folks, folks of color are often wary of talking about race in, you know, certain mainstream contexts because it can get them in trouble, right? That when you start challenging power, that there can be consequences and repercussions for doing that. that you don't want to offend the white folks who are around you when that can impact your check or your friendships, your relationships. And so I think that these are things that typically we don't speak about or we have not spoken about. And I think one of the big things that's happening is that activists and folks of color on social media have been pushing the issue and forcing it into national attention. They are not allowing the norms of silence that characterize so many spaces and mainstream spaces and face-to-face setting. They reject those norms online and say, no, we're going to talk about this. I'm going to call you out. I'm going to tell you the story of what happened to me. And here, I'm not as worried about the consequences of telling you the story as I might be if I was in the break room at the office. And so I think that it really is pushing us to have the hard conversations that we've needed to have for a very long time. And I think that that is hugely important, is to be able to engage in those discussions. And beyond that, I think that what we're seeing in terms of, right, so I guess, right, that's talking about race, but that's also part of resistance is that racism reproduces in silence, that when we don't challenge racism, it is allowed to stay, right? The racist systems, if left unchecked, can grow. And so, us talking about them is the first step of resistance, that we have to identify the problem and point it out to the people. And I think that that is what we're seeing with social media resistance, is that people are being woken up, that powers are being challenged, and we're able to have a more intelligent conversation about race when people have the vocabulary and the language to understand that racism is more than just individual level attacks or individual prejudice, but it's also the, you know, the ways that society and different institutions are set up to privilege some people over others. And so that is what, you know, that's what we're seeing happening, and I think it's been very exciting. It is unfortunate that now we seem to be in a moment of the pendulum swinging back where, you know, the races are saying, hey, we're tired of y'all making these, terms trend on Twitter. So we're going to start banning critical race theory, we're going to start banning diversity in schools. So because we want less people to know about the things that you're talking about. And so I think that that is that, you know, it is unfortunate, and it means that we still have to fight. But it also shows that the work has been, you know, affected to some degree that people are scared, and they want to stop the conversations that have been happening.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. Yeah. And I think to me, what I see in addition to those things, what social media in particular has done is kind of empower racists because it's anonymous. They don't have to worry about being seen or, you know, they can say what they say and it's just out there.

Kandidly Kristin: That's real. That's real. I think that there's a long history of white supremacists using technology intentionally. It's all right. So there's a mix of these things. That one, you have white supremacist groups who use tech and social media to recruit people and to share their ideas. The other is that you may have regular ordinary white folks who are not connected to any white supremacist groups, but who pop up at the mouth, who They're on social media and you get a taste of what they really think or the things they would usually say in private but not in public. And so absolutely, I think that social media can amplify marginalized voices. So when people feel like their point of view can't be shared in person, online they may feel a little bit more comfortable. And that includes, you know, giving racist space. And so, yeah, I think that that's problematic. I think that it can create harm. I think that the data shows that when people are exposed to racism, Black folks and folks of color, it hurts our mental health. It makes you, right, it has a negative impact on our well-being, makes us more stressed. And, you know, I think that those are things that we need to figure out how to combat. But at the same time, I think that when they show themselves, it is waking us up collectively to understand where racism lives and how prevalent it is, and how, you know, how we still need to be organized to fight for change despite, you know, So many, you know, like, there are lots of people who have comfortable lives and don't feel like there's something to fight for until, you know, there's a new hashtag. And I say, no, this is an ongoing battle. And for me, when I see those, you know, that racism online, it is a constant reminder that we are still in the midst of a freedom struggle.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Absolutely. Now, let me ask you this. Did you encounter any pushback or challenges while both researching and writing this book? Hmm. And I guess specifically from non-BIPOC people, like from white people or?

Kandidly Kristin: Well, you know, so, you know, I don't have the burden of being famous, right? I don't have all the craziness. There are less crazies in my inbox, right, than the people who have, you know, a couple million followers on Twitter. And so not that type of pushback where people are trying to shut me down. I would say I have gotten some of those crazy emails after something is published and someone will say, you know, send me a million links and, you know, but nothing that has been too disruptive to my life. I would say that, you know, I have got, I did get some feedback from folks who are, you know, invested in seeing me have a successful career as an academic, and that sometimes, right, in the field that I'm in, writing a book before tenure, may not be the wisest thing because it takes you your time away from doing the things that are, you know, more likely to get you tenure. So like having more articles or getting more grant funding, etc. But for me, this is something I was passionate about, and I wasn't willing to put on hold until post-tenure. And then, you know, and I guess challenges. I think that, yeah, I think I encountered a lot of challenges just in the process of doing the research and writing. That one of the things, or when I started the project, I was talking to students at one school, and then I expanded it to talking with folks at five different schools. And then, you know, I had all this data, but I thought, oh, you know, I don't know if this is enough, because this tells me, now I'm just, right to the date, I have 86 interviews with students around the country. But I didn't just want to write a book about how, you know, technology is changing the way we talk about and experience race and racism on college campuses. I wanted to speak more generally. And so then I had the challenge of developing, you know, new skills and doing social media data analytics so that I could bring that into the book. Right. Right. In addition to the interviews, I've got, you know, data on millions and millions of tweets over a period of a decade to look at different trends. And so that was a challenge that I had to overcome. It was a fun chat. It was fun to overcome. But I also very fortunate to have friends and collaborators and resources that allow me to do those things. So definitely there were challenges along the way, but then the type of challenges that, you know, as a critical thinker and as a problem solver, you know, were things that are to be expected. And things that I think really kind of increased my motivation to figure out how to, you know, say everything that I wanted to say in the book despite the difficulties, you know, methodological.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Got it. So were there any surprises, surprising discoveries or insights that kind of showed up during your research and writing process? Anything that made you go, huh?

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, yeah. So a couple things. So one, I'll say, and you know, touching this a little bit is I started this study, remember, is that case study of the racist website? Yeah, I thought I was just gonna write something about how, you know, kind of connecting sociological theory to racism online. And, and this is going to be a story about how students of color are being victimized by online racism. And I was surprised to see, to hear that, you know, what was happening was not just students of color feeling victimized, but that really the most exciting part about the story is how students of color resist racism online. And they began telling me stories about how they feel more comfortable challenging racism online than they do in person, giving me all these examples. And I think that was a more exciting and unanticipated part of the study for me. And it took it in a whole new direction where, you know, I think that the, you know, part of the book talks about how online communication changes, you know, the way that we talk about race, but then another part talks about how it changes the way that we resist racism. And so for me, that was an unexpected direction that I really think defines the book now. I will also say, I think it was unexpected for me to really struggle with my writing style, right? I am someone who is an academic. I write peer-reviewed articles. I'm doing science, right? But with this book, I was very intentional about writing it for a non science audience. I didn't want to write this book just for the folks who are in academia. I want to write this books for people who are interested in thinking about and learning about race, without having to, you know, know the academic jargon. And so I think that for me, I really completely change the way that I wrote in order to make sure that this is accessible for a broad audience. And that was harder than I thought it would be. And I guess, you know, I shouldn't be surprised that after, you know, decade or, you know, over a decade of being in academia, and writing in a certain way that to find a new style and to really find my voice was a difficulty, but it was something that I'm, you know, was pleasantly surprised to find that it's, you know, I could change that because that is, I don't want to be stuck in the ivory tower, that I want this work to be meaningful for people who are, you know, living in the world.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. And it is, it is accessible. It didn't, it's not a hard read at all. So you kind of answered this next question, but what was your hope like that readers took away from the book? And secondarily, what impact do you want that particular body of work to have on the broader discussion about racism and resistance?

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, yeah. So I think that's it. That is a great question. My hope, or let me say one of my hopes, right? And I think I have many hopes at different moments that some are closer to the surface for me. But one of my hopes is that, right, because the reality is I don't think the people who are trying to ban conversations about race are not the ones who are going to pick up the book. It's the people who already have some interest in thinking about racism. And my hope is that this book, not only help them understand how race and racism is changing in the digital age, but then also give them the tools that they need to engage in conversations and engage in, you know, thinking about interventions or thinking about how to pursue change that is informed by, you know, what's going on, you know, like, you know, the data. And so I think that that is what I would hope is that you read this book and now when you have that hard conversation with the, you know, the uncle who was a Trump supporter over Thanksgiving, you feel a little bit more equipped, right? That you've got some ammo that this book is giving you. That is one of the hopes that I have is that it helps people understand what's happening, but then also helps them be able to explain what's happening to other people. And then remind me, what was part two of that question?

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Part two is what impact do you want your work to have on the broader discussion about racism and resistance?

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that some of the important work that we can do now is about being able to name and highlight where racism lives. And I think that that is part of the work that I'm doing in this book is really unmasking racism online and showing us how it continues to be something that is, you know, dictating the opportunities and limitations that we have in our lives. And I think that what I want the book to do is to unmask those things in a way that empowers people who are fighting against racism so that we can, right, so that we know exactly who it is that we're up against and what it is that we're up against so we can come together. And part of what I try to do, too, is to point out the importance of online racism, but also to make sure that we know that we cannot limit ourselves to just organizing online. that we need to match this online organizing with traditional methods of organizing. And that's something that I do in the book is I have a couple moments where I step back and talk about strategies and philosophies of the classic, or the civil rights movement. and really trying to make the connection between what activists were doing then, what we're doing now, and what the differences are, and what, you know, the new things we can do because of technology, but also the old things that we can't forget about because technology may be a little bit easier in some moments.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Right. Yes, I like that. I like that. You, sir, are not only a writer and an academic, you're also a filmmaker. So talk to me about how those diverse parts of who you are intersect or informed how you address like racism and resistance. And then we're going to talk about the film.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, yeah, we could do that, we could do that. So I, you know, I have been an amateur filmmaker for a long time, that every year I make a short film, we submitted to this festival with my family. Like, you know, it's funny, I have like 13 years of films with my kids. And so I can watch my kids grow up through these films that we've been making every year, right? Like, I got a film with my daughter at a year, I'm tossing an iPad around and then now my daughter's 14, right? And so it's like, wow, we've been doing this for fun for a long time, but then never was it professional. It was just kind of, you know, I'm someone who loves fiction. You know, I've always, I've kind of always written fiction in my own free time. I have a creative family. My little sister, Risi Eschmann, is an author who's written five kids books. And so like, we get together and we make these movies. the first time that I, you know, went after or started to pursue filmmaking professionally was really after the findings of this book. One of the things that came out is that, right, so the research says that the most common way to respond to racial microaggression out of a subtle racial slight is to not respond. But then online, you know, it's a different story. The students talk to me online about how, hey, you know, like in person people don't respond to things like this, but online I've never seen a situation where someone doesn't comment on a racial, it always gets called out. It's a different dynamic. And so what I wanted to do is explore what the barriers are to responding to racial microaggressions in person and to really use technology or use film to model different forms of responding to racism and microaggressions. that hopefully can impact people's comfort level with doing that in real time. So really, I'm trying to take what I've learned can be empowering to students in an online setting and figure out how can we then now use film to kind of develop almost like a training tool or using stories to help people think about those processes in their lives. And so what we did is the film is called Choose Your Own Resistance. It's a short film in virtual reality. Um, and, um, um, and it is about, and I'm sorry, am I getting ahead of myself? Is it?

Dr. Rob Eschmann: No, that was literally the next.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay. Okay. It's the, the film is about, um, so when you think about virtual reality films, it's like you embody a certain, a different character. So the film is multi-perspective. You embody the characters of a young Black man who gets microaggressed, a bystander who witnesses the event, and then the microaggressor. And you see the world from all three of their perspectives, and then you see alternate endings, right? So you see the situation where there is no response to the microaggression, then you see the situation where there is a response to the microaggression. We're looking at the different causes and consequences around the choice of, do I challenge racism? in this moment. And so this is a, right, this is something that was a joy to me to be able to collaborate with experienced filmmakers and actors and really have a story that was developed out of interviews with, you know, with students about their real world experiences, right, we, this is a, right, we call that participatory design that the research participants played a hand in developing this film. And I'm really, you know, I'm really excited. It's almost done. I really, I just opened the email from folks who are doing the final sound mixing on the music. And so it's like, it's almost ready for the world. And I'm really excited about it.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Well, you got to make sure I get a link so I can put it in the show notes with the link to your book. Um, so I didn't realize when I was kind of, you know, putting together the outline for this chat that choose your own resistance came after when the hood comes off.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I love it. Yeah, you know, it is kind of my post book project that I turned the book in. And then this is what I got to working on is working on that film. And so it's something that, you know, has been a journey for me learning a new craft. But, you know, I'm really, really enjoying it and very happy to be exploring how storytelling can, you know, empower folks who are trying to do anti-racist work.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Absolutely, absolutely. And visual media is important. I'm a reader, but I also am visual. And some people are both and some people are either or. So sometimes seeing things visually helps. And I love the multiperspective. Because often we're only reacting, responding out of our own lived experiences. And it helps to see somebody else's vantage point to be in their shoes, looking at the situation. You know, I wear locks. So the microaggression with locks is just ridiculous. I mean, hair in general, folk wanting to touch your hair, like really? So I think it's very important to have, you know, to leverage the power of literature and visual media to do this work. Yeah. So listen, how does Dr. Rob balance the work of addressing racism while maintaining hope, resilience, and self-care in doing the work?

Kandidly Kristin: That's a great question. You know, I think, let me start with the last one first. Self-care. I have never struggled with self-care.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah, me either.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, and you know, before self care was like this trending thing, right? Yeah, that's just how I've always lived my life. And you know, and I think that's how I was raised to my mom used to give us mental health day, right? There was no being stressed in the house. I mean, stay home and go get you some tea and relax. I think that that's just how I you know, I've always operated where it's like a And it's not even that I'm thinking about mental health in those moments, but I can tell when my body or my mind needs a break, I take a break. And that can be, I love sports, I love playing basketball. And so for me, maybe hitting the gym, I did, I tore my Achilles playing basketball, so I went through a rehab process. So that was a little bit of a struggle for me to find ways to stay active. despite, you know, or to stay sane despite having my, you know, my foot be in a, you know, a boot where I can't really walk. Right. But, you know, but that's something I love going to the gym. I love playing ball. I love hitting the weights. I love going to the movies, right? I watch a lot of movies. I love spending time with my kids. We hang out and the older that they get, the more fun it is. Yeah. So, you know, there's just a lot of my life that is not, you know, this academic work. And I think that Yeah, yeah, it's easy for me to maintain that balance because it comes naturally. And so, yeah, a lot of those things I don't always think about as being self-care, but when I examine my life, it is full of self-care. Absolutely. That is important to me, having balance, right? Yeah. And I think the kids force me to do it too, is that I can't, they know that I can't not be there for them. And that means that I have to be done working at a certain time. Right. And then in terms of just, you know, maintaining hope that now that can be tough because it's almost like the more you learn about racism, the bigger the problem. Right. Right. Right. And that's that is a struggle. But then I think that my philosophy really is, if you look historically at the things that we've overcome. Yeah, I really do have faith that things can get better. And I think that, but I also don't think that it will happen automatically or kind of incrementally that we really do have to be fighting for radical change if we want to see any change. Yeah, I think my hope comes from the past and seeing all that we've done and that makes me hopeful for the future. And knowing that our people, that we are resilient and I believe that I believe that the more we expose racism, the more we show people what it looks like and its effects, the more people are going to be on the side of, hey, we need to end this thing. Yeah, that's where my hope goes.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay, all right. So, forward-looking, how do you see the entire landscape of activism, resistance, evolving in response to our digital age and challenges from that digital age?

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, one of the things I talk about in the book is that during the civil rights movement, activists had to strategize around having to get the attention of the mainstream media. Yeah. And, you know, the journalists didn't always want to cover what was going on with the civil rights movement. So we had to be intentional about how do we make sure the cameras are on when these dogs were attacking so the world can see what the ugliness of racism here. And I think that now with social media, one of the most exciting things that online activism can do is bypass those media gatekeepers. We can make something go viral without the journalists saying, yeah, look, we'll cover this. And now the journalists have to cover it because we made it go viral. So I think that that is something that is exciting about the future of activism. But I think that we're also seeing the powers that be recognize this and begin to make changes. Yeah from elon must taking over twitter to you know, facebook instagram limiting Activists posting on certain social issues that we are seeing the social media giants can become the new gatekeepers of information that really um, you know can can keep us from sharing just you know messages about justice and so I think that that is something that is scary and it's something that we have to um, you know continue to think about and really come up with a with the way that we want to attack that issue or ways that we want to keep our movement alive despite them trying to stop it, right? Yeah, yeah. And so I think that those are some things that I think are on the horizon is how do we, how are we going to maintain this momentum that we have when social media becomes an environment that is hostile to activism?

Dr. Rob Eschmann: So that's a great segue. So how can we? What are, in your opinion, some ways that individuals, communities can combat racism online and off?

Kandidly Kristin: Well, you know, I think that combating racism online, it may be as simple as leaving a comment, sending a message and letting people know that, hey, this is problematic. And you may not always get a good response, but I think you're right. And it's something that can be tiring for people. So you don't have the energy. I'm not telling you what to do. Right. But I think that that can be an important action, right? And so I have a study where we looked at people who tweeted Colin Kaepernick hate when he took the protest anti-Black police violence. People were burning his jersey and, you know, calling him un-American. And we did a study to look at people who are anti-Kaepernick and we followed them for a week and we looked for people who made concessions. Right. So people who said, you know what, you're right. I can see a different point of view. Maybe he's not anti-American. Okay, he has the right to protest. And we wanted to understand what. happen to make those people change their minds or make a concession in such a short amount of time. And one of the things we found is that people who receive more messages are more likely to change their mind. Disengaging people in conversation helped them to see a different point of view. And we think about all these online discussions or arguments as being, oh, there's no point arguing, like no one's ever going to change their mind. And sometimes you have people who are so set in their ways that they're not going to hear you when you're talking. But the evidence also shows that you can really cause someone to rethink their point of view. If you send them a link, like, hey, I see you're talking about this, check out this information on what's really happening in prison. And you may be able to change people's minds. And I think that's what we're seeing with trends in social media discourses that activists on social media have really been pushing folks to be able to think more critically about justice issues in a way that I think is powerful. So I think just talking about it, educating yourself, and finding ways to really get engaged and face-to-face work too, and not being satisfied just with social media activism.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. And I think misinformation is problematic when you talk about the digital landscape, like there's so much misinformation. So it's really important when you're engaging online or off that you have accurate information. So you're not just fighting misinformation with more misinformation.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. And I, you know, misinformation is scary. And I think that's one of the scary things about AI is the way that misinformation can be so much be developed so much faster. Yeah, and spread more widely. And so it's definitely something that we have to figure out how do we how do we combat misinformation? We don't know. Sometimes when things are trending, whether they came from bots or came from Russia, we don't know where this came from. And we have to be careful before we retweet something as fact, right? Like you can see a picture and someone says, oh, this is from Israel-Palestine, and really we don't, right? That was something that was taken in 2015 in Yugoslavia, right? We don't know, right? We don't always, we need to double check. We need to fact check when we see things. And I think that there are people in places that are doing that work, but then, you know, we have to be able to identify and challenge the myths and the misinformation that can go viral and really, you know, have a negative impact on the media landscape in terms of folks being tricked into, you know, thinking something is real that's not.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: That's not, yeah, absolutely. So Dr. Rob, what is your best piece of advice for writers, educators, filmmakers, activists who are passionately trying to address racism?

Kandidly Kristin: Oh, this is interesting. You know, I think that for me, a big part of being a producer whether it's of knowledge or of art, is being a consumer. And I think that I'm someone who I have a voracious appetite for reading, for, you know, watching films. You know, I am constantly I have lots of inputs, right? Like I'm, you know, going to museums that I'm, I'm always around creative things. And that allows me, that kind of feeds me so that I'm, I'm, I'm full and I have things to give, right? And so I think that, that I would encourage folks to keep learning and to keep seeking growth, right? Whether you're a filmmaker, whether you're an academic, the right, the more you know about what other people have done, The easier it will be for you to figure out where it is you want to do your work, what needs to be done based on what you've learned, where are the holes that you can have an impact and you could contribute to the conversation or help the issue. What has been done that you love that you want to build on? It's not stealing, right? When you admit that stuff, right? Like I said, I love that you did this and based on that, I want to do this. That is a beautiful way that art is done and that research is done. And so really, I'd say it's staying full and making sure that you have the right inputs, the right kind of media and knowledge diet to make sure you're consuming the right thing.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Gosh, this is an amazing chat. Like, seriously, it's one of, I mean, as a member of the African-American community, it's an important one for me personally, but I think it's bigger than that. I mean, we all have to live on this planet together.

Kandidly Kristin: So, you know, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. This is, you know, you're asking a hard question.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Good, good, good. Thank you so much for that. But, We're not done. That was the serious part. Now we get to the fun stuff and we get to play 10 candid questions. All right. All right. So just 10 random questions that I found online. Only rule is you have to answer them candidly. Okay. You ready?

Kandidly Kristin: Uh huh.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay. Number one, what is your favorite curse word? Let's

Kandidly Kristin: Oh, man. You know, I'm going to go with damn, because there's so many different ways you could say it. So many, so many different inflections and meanings. Yeah, it's probably the most appropriate one in many settings, too. Yes. They say damn in kids books.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's one of my favorites. Second to the F-bomb. That's my favorite. So question number two, handshakes or hugs?

Kandidly Kristin: Uh, I'm gonna go hugs.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay. Question number three. What is the most valuable lesson you've learned from a mistake or failure in your life?

Kandidly Kristin: Oh, you know, I think, um, so I, I had hoop dreams as a kid and I, I was, uh, I was really good at basketball in high school. I was recruited to play at a lot of colleges. I was, I was a D1 recruit and Bassler did not work out for me. And I think that, you know, some of my peers back then never gave up the hoop dream and I gave it up real quick. I gave it up real quick. I went and I, you know, I remember I went to college and it was the first time I was trying in academia, or trying in school. In high school, I didn't try, right? Things just kind of came easy to me. And I think I, once I realized that basketball was not my future, I was not going to be the next Allen Iverson at NBA. I applied myself to different things. And I think that was really, right, I do see that as being a failure that I've worked my whole life to try and be a basketball player that didn't work out. but then I took that work ethic and applied it in other places and I think that That is a lesson for me that, right, that failure in one thing doesn't mean that your life is over. And that, right, it's completely possible that that thing is not for you, but there is something else that's for you. And I think that that is something that I have, I apply consistently in my life, that I may have a passion, something that I go for, and it also may not be for me, or it may just be for fun and never something I share with the public. And I think that's okay.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay. Question number four, early bird or night owl?

Kandidly Kristin: Uh, it depends on the day. I could be both. Same. Coffee allows me to be both.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay. Uh, question five, what motivates you to get up in the morning?

Kandidly Kristin: Ooh, ah, that's a, that's a tough one. You know, there's some mornings I'm not motivated. The other morning, there's a deadline that motivates me. Um, You know, in general, I'd say I think life is a beautiful thing. I'm grateful to be living and, you know, I feel like I have a lot of joy in my life. And so I think that, yeah, you know, just gratitude for this experience.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Nice. OK, that's a good answer. Question six, sunrise or sunset?

Kandidly Kristin: Oh, I'm going to go sunset.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: OK, all right. Question 7. If you were stranded on a deserted island and could only bring three things, what would they be?

Kandidly Kristin: I'm going to say a laptop that is a special laptop that is equipped with Wi-Fi connections.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: And solar power because you won't have any electricity.

Kandidly Kristin: There you go. Yeah. Let me get it. Let me get a wind turbine too. Right. Um, that way I have access to unlimited books and movies. And then I'mma also give me, give me a basketball. And so I can have something to do with my hands too. Oh man, I got, there's no survival tools in there though.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Well, you may not be anything you need to use that for, but you might need it for, you know, a fishing pole or something so you can eat. I don't know.

Kandidly Kristin: Right, right.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay, question eight. Texts or phone calls?

Kandidly Kristin: I'm gonna say phone calls. I'm old school. I still call people out the blue, and I don't mind getting calls either.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay, all right. All right. Question number nine. What are you not very good at?

Kandidly Kristin: Holding my tongue.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: That's not a bad thing at all.

Kandidly Kristin: It can be. It can be. I'm working on it though.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah, all right question 10 and this is the same for every guest How can my listeners connect with you get your book and your film when it drops?

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, so the the book is available anywhere books are sold and It's on amazon. You could order it online from barnes and noble If you want to get it from your local bookstore if you tell them they'll be able to order it for you if it's not already there or um You know, you can order to independent bookstore, I think, through goodreads.com. And then you can connect with me. My website is robeshman.com. I'm on Instagram at Rob Eschmann. I'm on Twitter at Rob Eshman. And then the film, you know, I'll be posting information about the film on my social media. But right now it's not publicly available. I think we're going to study it first. We're using it in a lab. And then once we're done with the research side of it, then we'll find a way to make it available for everybody.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Okay. I am so looking forward to that. Honestly, I am. Dr. Rob, Thank you, number one. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for joining me and sharing part of your day with me and my listeners. I appreciate you.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on. This was a great conversation.

Dr. Rob Eschmann: Thank you so much. So guys, Dr. Rob Eschmann, like freshman, all his contact info, his website, links to the book, and whenever the film is available for public consumption, all of that will be in the show notes in case you didn't write it down, because I know y'all didn't. Please, please don't forget to visit my website at www.TheKandidShop.com. That's Kandid with a K. Listen to an episode, drop me a review and share the show with your friends, please. And thank you. And until the next time we meet, I want all of you to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it kandid.