Pioneering A Sustainable Future: A Kandid Chat with John Pabon on Eco-Responsibility

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Hey, hey, hey, podcast family. It is your girl, KANDIDLY KRISTIN, and this is The Kandid Shop, your number one destination for Kandid conversations. If you're new here, first timer, welcome. If you're a returning listener, welcome back, and thank you so much for your support. So today I am having a Kandid chat about sustainability. And joining me for this chat is consultant, speaker, and sustainability author of two books, Sustainability for the Rest of Us, Your No Bullshit Five Point Plan for Saving the Planet, and the great greenwashing, how brands, governments and influencers are lying to you. Mr. John Pabon. John, welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the Kandid shot.

JOHN PABON: I am excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I am excited to have this chat. Sustainability is, it really is an important topic. So I just want to get right into it. If you don't mind.

JOHN PABON: That's what I do day in and day out. So happy to. 

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice. So John, first, I just give me a little bit of your background, who you are and what led you to become a sustainability expert.

JOHN PABON: It's a great question. So I started out in public affairs, actually, so working at the United Nations, my background, my educations in political affairs. And I worked there for several years and then took a step out to go into consulting. But then for whatever reason, decided to go on a little vacation to Shanghai. And after I got back, I was living in New York at the time, I got back from Shanghai and it was the height of the global recession. And I thought to myself, you know what? Let's go. Let's move to Shanghai. Let's do it. So I packed up my bags, moved to Shanghai, but I needed to figure out a way to marry all of that public political experience that I had professionally in a very commercial city. Shanghai is like, it's like Manhattan on steroids. It is the epicenter world capitalism. So there's there's no public affairs stuff happening there. And I fell into sustainability, which for me is kind of the marriage of the doing good the public public affairs things, but also mixing that with business. And I'm sure we'll get into my particular area of the sustainability universe, which is primarily focused on the private sector. But that's my story. That's how I ended up in sustainability worked for a few consultancies that are specialists in that space, and then set up my own consultancy focusing more on the Governance and keeping corporations accountable for the things they say they're doing and the rest is history.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay. Okay, so Sustainability, that's what we're talking about. But just so that people are clear. How do you define that term sustainability? What does it mean?

JOHN PABON: And that is the correct first question to ask, because if you ask five people to define it, you're going to get a hundred different answers. So for me, and for most people who are in this space and do what I do, sustainability has become a catch-all term. for anything that builds a better future for the planet or for people. So a lot of times we talk about the green side, the hugging the trees, saving the polar bears, which is super important, and that gets the lion's share of the PR, the environmental side, but that's only one small facet of everything. So when you hear people saying, oh, equating sustainability with being just green, that's just one part, because there's an entire other part that focuses more on what we call the social thing. So that's involves humans, basically, and then what happens to humans in all of this. So how we help livelihoods, how we increase gender equity, how we work with things like supply chain and workers around the world. So these sort of animal welfare also fits neatly into that. So these are the things that fit into the social element. And then there's a whole side that we call governance, which is the more boring, nitty gritty stuff. of making sure primarily companies but also governments and individuals are transparent, they're open, they're honest with the things they're saying, and that they are actually doing good things to help further us all along in this very long-term sustainability journey we're all on.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay, okay. Good definition, because I personally would not have put the human factor in there. When I think sustainability, I think, you know, buying organic or going green, composting, stuff like that. Things that will, you know, help us not destroy the planet a little bit faster. So thank you for that. So let's talk a little bit about your books, because number one, I love the title, and I don't know which came first. the five-point plan or the great greenwashing, but what inspired you to write your no-bullshit five-point plan for saving the planet? Was there a specific moment in time or realization or experience that you were like, I need to put this down on paper and get it out to the world?

JOHN PABON: That was actually the the first book it came out in 2020 so I published it as I was sitting in a quarantine hotel in Korea actually so I yeah, that was the height of the of the pandemic and there's actually I think there's an epilogue there is an epilogue in that in that version of the book that talks about where to from the pandemic but The the thing that got me going on that is just seeing a lot of misinformation When it comes to sustainability, but a lot of people also becoming very despondent throwing up their hands going. You know what? I'm one of 10 billion people on this earth and I'm not making a difference. So I wanted to really lay out, what are some practical things that can actually be done and how do you make sense of all this? And in the book, I don't really give specific things people can do, because I think that's everybody's, that's your own journey. Figure out your passion point and what you want to do. I'm not going to lead you in that direction, but I talk more from the, getting your ducks in a row kind of perspective. So making sure we understand definitions like what we just did around what does sustainability mean, really clearing up what actually makes a difference versus what maybe isn't so impactful, getting people to think a little more strategically about the stuff they're doing. So it's a book of challenges more than a guidebook for what you can do. So it's not as easy as just reading it and going, okay, I have all the answers. It's more a challenge to people to improve. So it was more getting that information out there and helping people hopefully see a bit of a light at the end of the tunnel. Because I'm what I call a pragmatic altruist, but I'm also a realist. I see things going on day in and day out. And even though in the news it might seem like we're all screwed. I take a much more optimistic view of things. Things are going to change. We're going to be different. I'm not ignorant of the challenges we face, but I see enough good stuff that it gets me out of bed in the morning and keeps me doing what I do.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Gotcha, gotcha. OK, so that title, that particular title, Sustainability for the Rest of Us, kind of suggests that you your book is aimed at a broad audience. So who is, air quotes, the rest of us? And why is it important that sustainability be accessible and practical to everyone?

JOHN PABON: The third chapter in the book, or the third point in the book, is called Don't Be a Dick. I mean, feel free to bleep that if you want, but we're talking Kandidly. So that group of people are the ones that have held this idea of sustainability close to them, and they include those in the NGO and activist community, which To be fair, they've done amazing amounts of work, but they really haven't brought all of us along with them on the journey. You have academics as well, and then a lot of folks in government. So they're in that chapter. They feature prominently. And the rest of us, all of us, it's everybody else who aren't scientists or academics who aren't looking at this from an academic discussion perspective, more looking at it like, okay, we need to roll up our sleeves, get dirty, and get stuff done because we're affected by this day in and day out. I lived and worked in Shanghai for a whole decade, so I think a lot of the impetus for the book was seeing people dealing with things like pollution, water issues, food issues, all the time and going, okay, these people need a bit of help in terms of what they're supposed to do because nobody's giving them a hand, but that applies just as relevantly to all of us. What are we supposed to do? I talk quite frequently about how bad sustainability folks have been when it comes to marketing solutions. We all know what it looks like. It's been the same way since the 80s. It's the polar bear on the melting ice cap. It's the Mad Max future where everybody's on motorbikes and in leather. And this stuff is not relatable. Or even the, you could sponsor this child in a far off country for the cost of a cup of coffee. All of these things we know, but that doesn't help you Relate to anything because at the end of the day sustainability is very much a a personal thing how it affects you is how you'll respond so it needs to be relevant it needs to be relatable and For the rest of us. I don't think we've had we had that as of late but certainly with I'm not going to take all the credit from the book but certainly with social media and the way things have changed now people Really are understanding more of these broader messages of what they can do to save the planet

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay. All right. So just really transparent. Sustainability is a little bit overwhelming, the thought of it. I think because most people, or at least speaking for myself, you want to try to do everything. versus maybe just doing the one or two things that make sense in your world. You know what I mean? So how does your book or books and your perspective on sustainability address that kind of challenge for regular folks and communities? the challenges that we might face when we're trying to adopt really practical, real-life sustainability practices.

JOHN PABON: Absolutely. It's funny you bring that up, because point number two in the book is something that I've come to live by. I can't take credit for this phrase. I don't know who told me this mantra, but it definitely stuck. And the mantra is, you can do anything, but you cannot do everything. And that is so important, especially for those of us that care, because you hit the nail on the head that we, for those of us who are altruists, we care. We want to do everything. We want to adopt every dog on the street. We want to feed every homeless person. And then we want to go, you know, build a community garden on a Saturday and you can't do that. it, you know, bless you, you can't do that, because you're only one person. And all that's going to do is just lead to burnout. So I always encourage people to pick that area of sustainability that you are most passionate about, it could be something that you you care about very deeply, because it's personal, it could be something you have a specialized skill in, for example, you know, if you have, financial acumen good, that's not my thing. But if you have it, there are groups that need your help. And if you're financially well off, congratulations to you. We also need your money. So figure out what that is and really put blinders on yourself to focus on those things, confident in the knowledge that there are billions of other people that care as much as you do, and they will pick up in their own special areas. So you don't have to do it all. And I think for most of us, we feel like we do. So I guess my big message is don't beat yourself up over that and try to think you need to do it all, because that is not the case. There are plenty of other people. To your second point, and this is something that is just now starting to enter the discussion around sustainability, at least kind of in academic circles, is the idea of intersectionality within sustainability. We talk about intersectionality a lot when it comes to social justice, but for sustainability it's just as relevant because the solutions and the things that we do as individuals are going to vary wildly depending on who we are, where we come from, our position in the world. So my my position on all of this is that we cannot expect everybody to approach this in the exact same way. And I think that really does go back to this idea I was mentioning of, I don't want to direct or dictate to people what they should and should not do, because that's not fair, because things are going to look different. So the solutions that somebody that lives in Manhattan is going to provide are going to be vastly different than somebody in Dhaka, Bangladesh, right? And the responsibility that those two people have is also going to be extremely different. So we have to approach, back that up, we can't approach this with a one size fits all model.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. Agreed. And that's a really good segue into my next question is, you know, keeping it all the way real and Kandid. Some folks face real barriers when even thinking about adopting sustainability practices, cost, no awareness of convenience. So how do we overcome that particular challenge? That's probably the same answer, is to pick what you can do and do that.

JOHN PABON: That's a really important thing. I think as well, and this is, there's different actors when it comes to this, right? So you have the government people doing the policies and dictating what regulations will be, but you also have all of us and the social norms and pressure that we put on people when it comes to this. And I think particularly for us is to remember that idea of intersectionality and that you, can't require everybody to be doing the exact same things because people may not have the means, especially when it comes to shopping sustainably. I get that. It costs more. It takes research that a lot of people don't have time or the means to do. I don't want to do research when I go shop at the store. So I can't imagine somebody who isn't even on the inside like I am wanting to do it. So I get that. And we can't expect everybody to be doing all things equally. So I think that's the real important part. And to also remember that there is no such thing as a perfect, we'll call him an environmentalist, no such thing, right? There's no reason, again, to the earlier point that we need to be doing everything. There is no reason that you can't call yourself an environmentalist or an altruist. And Not get on a plane to go on a vacation. I like to go on vacation. Everyone likes to go on vacation So you don't have to be doing these massive extreme things like becoming vegan going living off the grid and giving up your cell phone if you do it great Congratulations, but the vast majority of us that's not realistic I like to operate within the realm of reality when it comes to this because I think when it comes to building a sustainable future a lot of our recent history has not been based in reality. It's more the floopy stuff that we know is not going to actually happen. And then what happens is we just get frustrated because these things don't actualize. I would love for everybody to be more sustainable, but for the vast majority of people, that's not a reality right now, and that's okay.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: your five-point plan or your even perspective on sustainability different and distinct from other sustainability frameworks?

JOHN PABON: The biggest aha that came out of all of this is when I started to write the book, I thought, you know, John, are you the one taking crazy pills? Why are you the only one thinking this way? Am I wrong in thinking this way? And as the book came out, and I've started to talk about this more and certainly over the past several years, I've realized that no, I'm not the crazy one. A lot of people agree with this perspective. And I like that, that this theory of change is really getting out there where it's more of a, I don't know, nobody's ever asked me this before. What do I call it? A humanistic, realistic approach to things versus just an academic discussion of sustainability, which in much of the developed world, it is an academic discussion. You have these panels of people that are talking about these very, a lot of times, very academic, scientific parts of sustainability, but I suppose as me having worked so long in the developing world and really coming up in sustainability in the developing world, I have a very different perspective about what it's going to take to change the future, which is not an academic discussion. It is, like I said before, it's a, you know, you've got to get dirty. The number of weeks and months that I have spent inside factories, I lived on a palm oil plantation in Borneo for a while. Like, you don't have, you know, let's be honest, a pale male stale panel of academics in New York know anything about that. So it leads to a very different theory of change.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Gotcha. It kind of gives me macro versus micro. You know what I mean? Like you guys are sitting up there and it's big and, you know, puffed up and it sounds really great on a panel or a thesis, but the macro work, the work, you know, the boots on the ground work, the day-to-day is important and it's where most people live.

JOHN PABON: That's it. And I think that is actually, that's beautifully put. The book, to your question, and the theory of change, it meets people where they live, where they are, versus trying to drag them to where maybe academics and others are.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. I love it. I love it. So give me one, just one key takeaway or call to action that you would hope that people that read your book embrace?

JOHN PABON: I want everyone to become a pragmatic altruist. I'm building a pragmatic altruist army. So what I mean by that is, it is amazing to be an altruist, to care, to wear your heart on your sleeve, and to want to make a positive difference. But unless you're doing that pragmatically, strategically, with a plan in mind, you're going to end up with frustration, right? You got to have a plan in mind, and then you got to work that plan. And it's the same in sustainability as it is in business. You have to be strategic about the things you're doing. And from there, you're going to make a massive impact.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice, nice, nice, nice. So our world is changing rapidly. So given that, where do you see sustainability going in the future and how can us, you know, pragmatic altruists or just people that give a damn prepare for and contribute to the future of sustainability?

JOHN PABON: Yeah, it's It's an easy one for me to sort of crystal ball, whether or not it's going to become a reality is a different situation. But I really do approach my crystal balling of the future from the experiences I've had and from the things I'm seeing primarily behind the scenes that a lot of people don't see. So that's how I'm framing all of this. And as we talked about, today, especially as a consumer, you have to do research, you have to pay more when you go to the store and you want to do the right thing. I am guessing that in 10 or 15 years time, hopefully sooner, but 10, 15 years time, we won't have to do that anymore. Because the way things are going today, companies by and large are starting to do the right thing. And a lot of them have entered into this virtuous cycle of not just competing on the bottom line, which for business is important, but also genuinely trying to improve the things they do and the products that they sell where. I like to give the example of electric vehicles. And I know electric vehicles are problematic. They're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But I approach things very much from a have we moved the needle in the right direction perspective. And in that sense, an electric vehicle is far better than a traditional combustion engine car. So are they perfect? No. Is it the end all of automobiles? No, absolutely not. But at least it's something better than what we had before. And when we look at this from a business perspective, Now, every major car company has some sort of an electric vehicle. So that no longer is a differentiator for them. It used to be. It's not anymore. So now they need to be thinking, okay, if that's not my differentiator, what is the next thing I need to be doing? What's the improvement I need to make on EVs? Or is there something even better than that that I could be doing? Now, I don't work with automotive companies. I talk to plenty of people in sustainability roles at these companies. And There are, and I don't know how they're talking about this, but I know they are talking about this. There are conversations at some major established automotive brands of totally weeding themselves off of producing automobiles at all. So they're thinking about things like, can we just totally divest and put all of our money into public transportation? What is the market asking for? So these are the things that happen when that virtuous cycle is entered into. So you can have these really fascinating, robust conversations around actually making positive change. And that's the way we're going. So if we think about the future and the way it goes, this sort of innovation and development won't happen linearly. This is going to be exponential. So The amount of change that will happen over the next decade is just probably going to blow all of our minds, which is great in a positive way. And because of that, all of the old dinosaurs that still refuse to do anything genuinely good, the market's going to say, no, we don't want to deal with you. There's not going to be a place, you know, as much as we would probably love to be rid of capitalism, that's not on the cards anytime soon. I hope there's an economic genius somewhere thinking of a different system that's better, but for the time being, this is what we got. So we've got to work within it. And the few silver linings of capitalism, one of them is that the market will take care of those that don't respond. So all of those really bad polluting companies, with the exception of those in fossil fuels, that's a totally different subject, but for most of them, they will respond to what the market wants. And then those that don't will go the way of the dodo. So back to the well-predicted 10, 15 years from now, you go to the store, you go to the shelf, 99% of the work will already have been done. All you need to do is just simply make a choice of whatever package you like best because everything will be the right choice.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice. Oh, that's I like that crystal ball view. I really do. So I just want to briefly talk about your second book, The Great Greenwashing, how brands, governments and influencers are lying to you. Tell me about that book and where did that come from? Your titles, I don't know if you picked them or somebody else, but they're great. They make you want to go, shit, I want to read this.

JOHN PABON: That's the point of a title, right? It's supposed to be true in the book at least. Yeah, especially in my world where everything is so boring. Like the last thing anybody wants to do is read about sustainability, right? I get that. I'm not ignorant to that. So yeah, got to work on the titles for sure and make them as good as they can. So the great greenwashing, and we'll frame what greenwashing is. Yeah. Greenwashing is a term used when primarily companies, but we'll find out other actors in a second, they wrap themselves in this language of being green and sustainable when the reality is not as altruistic. They're likely just trying to sell their product and make a few dollars for themselves, but they try to pass it on to the consumers if they're doing something good when that may not be the case. The poster children of doing this are things like hotels and the towel reuse programs that they all have. Yeah, it makes you feel good that you did the right thing, but really, that just comes out of hotel wanting to save money on washing towels. So that's a great example of greenwashing. Other examples, when you go to the store, you'll sometimes see packages that are colored green or that say, we're good for the earth, but they don't really back up those claims. They just assume you take that at face value. And this isn't to say that all corporations lie. A lot of the brands are very good and very sustainable and great for the planet, but But going back to that idea of having to do research, sometimes, you know, the claims are really outlandish, and they don't make any sense. And they just assume you're going to take things at face value. So that's green walking, that is using the language of sustainability to essentially lie to consumers. Now, as we've come out the other end of the pandemic, and I know we're still very much in a global pandemic, but As we come out the other end, a lot of my colleagues, we've noticed a massive uptick in corporate greenwashing. And that's for lots of different issues. I think a lot of the companies that have been holdouts have finally realized, oh, we can make lots of money. And so they are now just saying whatever they want to say, right? And nobody's holding them accountable. So we've noticed a massive uptick in that. And I thought, okay, time for your second book, John, you've had a bit of rest from the first. So let's do it again. And I came up with that. And as I was doing the research for the book, and peeling back the layers, I realized, oh, gosh, it's not just corporations. I thought I would do some case studies and be done with the book. But no, it just kept getting bigger and bigger, because I realized, oh, Of course, it's governments. They do it, too. They're lying about their green credentials. And of course, it's international organizations like the United Nations does it. You know, they used to pay my bills, but, you know, they tend to lie as well. It's sporting organizations. What's called sports wash. And then I peeled it back even further. I'm like, of course, celebrities do it. Of course they do. I'm from L.A. Why didn't I realize that? So basically, everybody's lying, which is a very fatalistic message. I know it's nihilistic, but I think it's more of a challenge to people to just be a bit smarter and not to take things at face value when it comes to what all of these different actors say in terms of how they're approaching building a better future.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: So how does the average Joe wade through all of that to get to the good stuff? How do we do that? How do we do that in a way that doesn't Have us at the supermarket Let's just say for four hours because we're on our phones trying to research everything before we put it in the cart Just huddled in the corner crying

JOHN PABON: because I can't make a choice. There are a few tried and true ways. And the first one, which is probably not so helpful, but it's really important is trust your gut. Like if you read the back of a package and you see a bunch of numbers and things that sound too good to be true, that's because a marketing team got ahold of it. And it probably is too good to be true. So trust your gut, number one. Number two, especially when it comes to grocery type products, but also retail products like textiles and whatnot, you'll sometimes see a stamp of approval when it comes to things like coffee and tea. There is a great group called the Rainforest Alliance. There's a stamp that looks like a little tree frog on the package. That is a certification that that particular company has their ducks in a row when it comes to being a good, ethical, sustainable company, so you can trust that. There's also the B Corporation, and that looks like a big black and white B that is sometimes stamped on a package, or a lot of times on retail outlets, you'll see that they'll have B Corporation somewhere on their front signage. And that's also a great stamp of approval showing that that company has gone through all of the processes of making sure that they have strong ethics, strong green credentials, and governance credentials as well. So those are great examples of how you can make sure when you're at the store, you're choosing the right thing. But just be careful. And I talk about this in the book. Marketing teams, as they tend to do, they've gotten slick with how they lie to us. And a lot of them have created their own Stamps that mean nothing. It's just a marketing team got on Canva and made a stamp. So it's it's getting bad But as we talked about with that crystal ball prediction, it's consumers are smart and they're seeing right through that So that is not going to be the case for hopefully for much longer.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Hopefully regulation comes into play even though it hasn't yet okay, and Is there any? legislation or regulation in the anywhere floating around the hill for this.

JOHN PABON: Certainly not in the United States, unfortunately. And that's not to bash the U.S. There's very few countries that are doing anything. Australia has just started to play a bit with fining companies for doing greenwashing, and they've done a few of that over the past year. Slaps on the wrist, sure, but at least it's a move in the right direction. I think Singapore does a bit of it. So we're not going to see that as consumers. The regulation comes in at more of a corporate wide level. So if you're a publicly listed company, for example, in the New York Stock Exchange, you have to produce a pretty robust sustainability report every year. Obviously, I would not encourage any consumer to waste time reading sustainability reports. Please don't. Unless you're an insomniac and then read them because they will put you to sleep. So, but there is a bit of regulation happening. I just would hope there's going to be more to protect consumers directly.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay. All right. So give me your last thoughts and speak, kind of speak to those people who might hear this, who A, might be new to the concept entirely of sustainability or B, seeking really practical guidance.

JOHN PABON: The future is going to be a good one. We are going to adapt. Things are going to look a bit different, maybe, as we go through time. And we already see that happening now where changes are being made, adaptations are being made. But humans will survive. The planet will also survive. We're going to be all right. We're not going to have to get on motorbikes in leather jackets and ride around the desert. So don't worry about that. But I would definitely encourage people to find again that area that they're passionate about and just get started because there is still plenty of runway for us to improve things. It's not like the die has been cast. So if you find something you want to do, especially something local in your community that you can make a massive positive, not even a massive, I'll back up. It doesn't have to be a massive thing. Like we can just approach this with doing something, right? I would encourage people to do that. Just get out there and get, as the Aussies say, get stuck in.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right. And listen, guys, if you want to take a giant step forward in learning about sustainability and what you can do in your own home or community, get John's book. That's the first step. You can do that. Get the book, get the book, get the book. Oh, wow. This has been I never even thought, you know, doing this podcast thing, right, you come across people email me with topics. I'm like, huh, I never even thought to talk about that. And as much as I'm like, ain't all about what I do for sustainability, like that, the coffee that I buy has to have that little froggy thing on it. And the little things that I do, I never thought to have it as a an episode. So I'm really, really glad that we got a chance to talk. And hopefully when people hear this, they'll be like, OK, OK, I feel better now because sometimes, you know, I have a water bottle or something and I'm like, I need to stop buying these single use bottles or I don't always recycle and I'm beating myself up. So. This was really important. And I appreciate you so much for coming to share your perspective, your books, all of your, your lot of information in a really short time. But the nice thing about podcasts is you can run them back and listen to them again if you miss something. So thank you so much, John.

JOHN PABON: Absolutely. I'll give you a fun little factoid since you brought up water bottles. So, you know, we talk a lot and we put so much pressure on ourselves and our carbon footprint, right? Everybody talks about the carbon footprint, what they're doing. And a lot of people go as far as to get online and try to calculate the carbon footprint. Yeah, and it's stressful and I get that. And it's really a sort of like a, I don't know if this is an outdated reference, like a scarlet letter that people wear around themselves going, oh, I don't know what people read in school anymore. A scarlet letter around their neck going, oh my God, I'm a terrible person. I can't believe I had a plastic water bottle my one time today. Don't beat yourself up over that stuff because, and this is the fun factoid part, the carbon footprint calculator was actually created by British Petroleum. Oh wow. Yeah, so a pure form of greenwashing. They created it in the early 2000s along with Edelman Public Relations because they said, oh, our sustainability report, we want more people to read it. So what do we do to sort of zhuzh it up? And Edelman came up with the carbon footprint calculator. not to calculate BP's carbon footprint, but to put the pressure on consumers to improve themselves. So it wasn't a self-reflective thing on their part. It was a guilt thing for all of us. So when I do my calculation, for example, I have a massive carbon footprint. The reason I do is because I tend to get on a plane to go work with companies to make them more sustainable, but I don't get a credit for that. Right. So all I get is guilted for being bad on papers. So all of that to say, don't worry about your carbon footprint, worry about it. Of course, you know, don't do bad things, but, uh, you know, consider everything as holistically and as a part of a whole. Got it.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Got it. That's funny that that really is like, I I'm going to get the greenwashing book. I need to get both of them, but that one in particular, because. Every time I'm in the store and I'm reaching for something that says, and I'm doing air quotes, organic, or any of those other catchphrases that make people think that this is better than this, I'm like, but how do I really know? Did they just slap that on there and be like, they'll buy it. They won't think about it. If it says it, they'll believe it. So this has been a really, really interesting chat. Interesting and informative. So thank you.

JOHN PABON: Absolutely. Happy to.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Ah, but we're not done. We're done with that part.

JOHN PABON: That's the part I'm excited most for.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: We're getting to the fun stuff. We're going to play 10 candy questions. 10 candy questions is just 10 really, really random questions that I found on some list on Google. And the only rule is you have to answer them Kandidly. So you ready?

JOHN PABON: For anybody listening, it is 8 a.m. on a Sunday in Australia. So frame that when I do these responses. The synapses aren't firing, but I'll try my best.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Gotcha. You heard that disclaimer, guys, OK? It's 8 a.m. in Australia. Oh, my. Now I doubly thank you for being here. Oh, geez. All right. Question number one. Sunsets or sunrises? Sunrise. You said that really quick. Okay, question number two. If you had a magic wand for one day, what one problem in the world would you fix?

JOHN PABON: I would get rid of all the fossil fuel companies.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: All right. I kind of knew that answer was going to be somewhere in the sustainability world. Okay. Question three, cats or dogs? Dogs. Same. Question four, what's one thing you believe absolutely every person should experience at least once?

JOHN PABON: Some form of travel to a foreign country. And if not travel, then living somewhere for a bit of time.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Interesting. All right. Question five, hugs or handshakes?

JOHN PABON: Hugs. From Southern California, hugs all the way. Okay.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Number six. If you could write a message on a billboard that everyone in the world would see, what would it say?

JOHN PABON: It would be that mantra, you can do anything, but you can't do everything.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice, nice. You sure you didn't get these questions in advance? No, I promised. Question seven. Phone calls or text messages?

JOHN PABON: Ooh, I'm about to show my age. No, I'm actually not. I'm going to say text messages. That makes me a Gen Z, even though I'm not.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I know. I talk so much in everything that I do that I hate talking for personal reasons. Just text me or email me. That's it. All right. Question eight. If you were stranded on a desert island and could bring only three things, what would they be?

JOHN PABON: Oof. Let's see. Oh, that one's a stumper. Oh, I would bring. Can I bring my dog? I'll bring my dog. I would bring some way to make tacos. That's breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I could survive forever on those. That's all right. I would probably bring… Oh, this is so silly. I'd bring a good book. Because what else am I going to do?

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Because what else? Right, right. What else are you going to do? Those are three good things, dog. Some way to make tacos in a book. For heaven. All right. Question nine, coffee or tea?

JOHN PABON: Coffee.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: OK. And last question, which is the same for everyone. How can my listeners connect with you and get your books?

JOHN PABON: So two ways they could either go on to my website, which is johnpobon.com. I'm sure it'll be somewhere in a show note somewhere. And then also on TikTok. I love TikTok and I've built a bit of a following on there. So it's a great channel for people to really come and ask detailed questions about things and really get to the nitty gritty versus a lot of other social media sites that are more short form. So yeah, definitely find me on TikTok. It's John A. Pabon on TikTok. Somebody took my name already.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: So I had to have my middle initial to hate that and Pabon is with his spelling is P-A-B-O-N. Okay. All right. Well, John A. Pabon, thank you so very much for joining me today. My God. Thank you for getting up.

JOHN PABON: No, not at all. I'm a sunrise person. Yeah, but still.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Well, I appreciate you and the work that you do. And I am really grateful that you came and shared some time. Oh, no, no. Thank you. So guys, Make sure you check the show notes, John's info, his website, and links to the book will be in there. And don't forget to visit my little old website at www.theKandidshop.com. Kandid with a K. Listen to an episode or five, drop me a review, share the show with your friends. And as always, until we meet again, I want you all to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it Kandid.