THE TIES THAT BIND: A KANDID CHAT ON TRAUMA BONDS

Kandidly Kristin: This is a content trigger warning. This episode continues discussions about domestic violence, abuse, and trauma bonding, which may be triggering to listeners with similar experiences. Please, please, please engage in self-care if you choose to continue to listen.

Hey, hey, hey fam. It's your girl, kandidly Kristin and this is The Kandid Shop where we always keep it kandid. Today we are going to be diving into the topic of trauma bonds, what it is, what is not, how they happen, and most importantly, how you can break them.

Joining me for this important discussion are the creator and host of the personal development podcast: Watch Us Thrive, Ms Lianne and licensed mental health counselor, certified clinical trauma professional, certified compassion fatigue professional and educator Natasha D’Arcangelo.

Welcome, welcome, welcome ladies to The Kandid Shop.

Lianne: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Excited to be here.

Kandidly Kristin: That's a lot of stuff after your name ma'am. isn't it?

Natasha D’Arcangelo: I do have a lot of letters behind me.

Kandidly Kristin: Yes, you do. So listen, trauma bonding is, I don't know, it's become a bit of a trendy term. It's misunderstood, minimized, and even romanticized. So I went in search of a definition for trauma bonds and came up with this trauma bonding is the formation of an emotional attachment between a person and their abuser which often makes the victim of the abuse feel compelled to stay in the relationship.

Fundamentally, it's about dependency and having someone abusive fulfill your emotional and spiritual needs. So would you ladies add anything to that definition, take anything away from it, expand on it in any way, or did that kind of nail it?

Lianne: For me, it hit the nail on the head. And being a survivor of domestic violence, I never knew what trauma bonding was until after I was out of the relationship. And it makes so much sense. I was so codependent in that relationship. That's something that I experienced in a lot of other relationships, but especially the last one, which was the most physically abusive.

Right. I felt like I wanted to save him, and I think that's something that a lot of people do in those types of relationships. Like if I just loved him a little bit more, or if I did more things out of my comfort zone, you know, to please him, then I could save the relationship. But I was losing myself in the process.

Kandidly Kristin: Natasha,

Natasha D’Arcangelo: yeah, I would say that that's like a spot-on definition. It's, whatever you do is never gonna be enough, right? But people will spend years and years and years trying to bend themselves into pretzels and bend over backwards, and it's just never going to be enough. But it's never going to be enough, not because there's something inherently wrong with you, but because there's something inherently wrong with the relationship. It's just the toxic cycle. But it's really hard to see that when you're in it. So, yeah, that would be my only thing to add.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah. Okay. So what I wanted to insert right here is that I've been seeing stuff about trauma bonds that kind of talk about it as being people bonding over shared trauma or overcoming obstacles, and hard moments together. And that's not it. Trauma bonding is a specific feature of abusive relationships. Correct?

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Correct. Yeah, I think that's a big misunderstanding out there. So I would just caution people for when you're seeing things, especially like a lot of my clients will come to me with stuff that they saw on Tiktok and so I just... and don't get me wrong, like Mental Health Tiktok has opened up some fantastic conversations with the clients that I work with. And I do believe that you can get really... I'm all about mental health access. We're talking about mental health. Yes. And I want you to consider your source. So you know, if somebody is holding themself out as an expert on something, it's just, well, what makes you the expert on this thing? And just kind of understands while there is a lot of stuff out there, and stuff is more accessible, You wanna consider your source. So that's what I would say about that.

Lianne: Okay. I'm glad that you bring that up because when I first heard about trauma bonding, that's what I thought it was like, two people have this shared experience, but when I think about the relationship that I was in, our upbringings, our lives were different, opposite.

But again, I felt like because he came from such a hard life and was the complete opposite of what I experienced, I wanted to help him. I wanted to save him. I wanted to do all these things that were making me lose myself at the same time.

Kandidly Kristin: Right. So let's talk about the different ways because when people hear the term abusive relationship, they immediately go to physical abuse. So I just wanted to talk a little bit about the different ways a relationship can be abusive, that's not physical, and either one of you can go first.

Lianne: Yeah. Well for me, you know, like I said, I'm a survivor and I've gone through that lived experience. It didn't start immediately as him putting his hands on me.

At first, I thought it was the best relationship of my life. He had this mask on and he pretended very well, which is something that I think happens a lot in these types of relationships. There's a lot of lying, a lot of manipulation, a lot of cheating, a lot of emotional abuse. You know, gaslighting is another very trendy word nowadays. But that's something that is happening in those types of relationships. So, It was a lot of mind games that were happening before. Slowly it started to get a little more intense until it got to the physical point.

Kandidly Kristin: Got it. Yeah.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Okay. And I will say for just about every single client that I work with, there isn't always physical abuse. And a lot of people, it's almost like they talk themselves out of it. They're like, well, but, but if they're not beating me, then it can't be an abusive relationship. Right. But that's not true. And so one of the tools that I like to use with folks, a nice free resource is the power and control wheel.

And it's a free tool out there. It's through the National Domestic Violence Hotline website. And it's a nice visual, and what it does is breaks up different areas of power and control that can be in a relationship. And so I'll use that tool in a session with a client and we'll go through the different categories are using intimidation, using emotional abuse. Using isolation, minimizing, denying, and blaming, using children, using male privilege, using economic abuse and using coercion and threats. So if you take a look at that again, it's called the power and control wheel. It's free. Okay. You can Google it and pull it up, and if you think that it might apply to your relationship, just pull it up and see what it has to say.

That's just the one that comes up on the National Domestic Violence Hotline, but I work with my clients who are under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, and so there is one for non-hetero couples situations as well. So if that applies to you, that resource is available out there also.

It doesn't just happen with cishet relationships.

Kandidly Kristin: Right, right.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: And I think that's another thing that people don't always realize is you can be in an abusive relationship even if you're not in a cishet situation. So. Right. I think that's another thing that people tend to try to talk themselves out of.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah. So what do you ladies believe? how big a role do you ladies feel like childhood attachment issues play in adults being more likely to be in trauma bond situations, relationships, whatever? Is there some, maybe not causation, but some correlation between childhood attachment issues, maybe abandonment issues that make somebody more prone to be in this kind of relationship or the trauma bond?

Lianne: Natasha, if you wanna go, if you wanna share from a professional point?

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Sure. So, from a clinical standpoint, it's a hundred per cent. I would say it's almost, if not a hundred per cent, it's like 98, 99%. I specialize in working with folks with a background of trauma, and so when I do an intake, I always, I'm looking at it through that lens.

So one of the things that I'll always ask a client when I'm seeing them for the first time is to tell me about growing up. Who raised you? Where were you born and raised? What was the relationship like between your caregivers if you had more than one? So here's what happens when you grow up in a household with caregivers.

That relationship ends up being what your idea of a relationship is. And so a lot of people from the outside hear this all the time. They're like, oh, I don't understand. Why don't they just leave? You know, they're staying there, but it's not that simple, right? If you grew up every day, And you very frequently saw your caregiver being hurt or emotionally abused.

You think that's normal because you don't know any other way of being. Yes. So then when you get to the age where you start dating and you get into relationships, if your partner starts to be emotionally or physically abusing you, for you, that's normal, right? You don't know that that's not normal until you start talking to other people or you know, have a conversation with a friend or somebody that's worried about you, right? So there's a huge correlation between the trauma that you experienced as a child and what your attachment style is because that ends up becoming the blueprint for how you are going to function in your adult relationship. So there's a huge correlation there.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay. I thought that there was, so I had to put that out there.

Now let me ask you, Lianne, because you are a survivor of this domestic violence and trauma bonding, how did that play out for you, like in real-time in terms of your relationship? And when did you know that you were trauma bonding with this person?

Lianne: Truth be told, I didn't realize it until after I escaped.

I physically escaped that relationship because it got to the point where he tried to end my life multiple times, actually a little over two years ago. So, You know, the trauma bond. I just wanna say something that Natasha talked about. It's interesting how a lot of it has to do with our childhood. But for people who are in these types of relationships, it happens to so many people. As for me and my upbringing, I didn't grow up around those types of relationships. My parents, they just celebrated their 41st wedding anniversary. You know, they've been together. I never saw my dad put his hands on my mom, never heard my mom call my dad out of his name. So I didn't grow up in that type of environment, but I know that for me, I had an anxious attachment style, and I believe that's because of the past relationships that I've been in. Have an abandonment wound that I know has probably stemmed from, you know, my teenage life. But, you know, it's just super interesting that so many different people can find themselves in these types of relationship despite what their upbringing look like. So, yeah.

Kandidly Kristin: Now let me ask you a question, Natasha. Do trauma bonds always form, or is that a particular piece of the whole domestic violence? Big picture, like are there some people that get out and are not trauma bonded?

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Oh, that's a good question. I would say it's a piece. I mean, everybody's situation is so different, right? And you know, like Lianne was saying, I think this kind of goes back to like think about the relationship with her parents, right? You said they've been together for 40-plus years, right? And so she didn't grow up witnessing this trauma. So here's what I want you to think about: that doesn't mean that there hasn't been trauma; that doesn't mean that you didn't live through trauma. So there's this, another free resource if folks aren't familiar with it, it's called The ACEs, which is the Adverse Childhood Experiences. Again, another free tool. I encourage people to Google it. It'll come up real quick. It's 10 questions and it's 10 different areas of potential abuse, trauma, or neglect that you might have experienced before the age of 18. What the field of trauma research has told us is the higher your ACEs score is, so the closer you are to 10 the more likely it is that you're gonna have negative impacts later on down in life, including folks with higher ACEs scores tend to suffer more from depression. They tend to suffer more from anxiety. So even if you like landed, she grew up in a household where her caregivers were stable and they exhibited loving relationships towards each other. And that doesn't mean, and I don't wanna call you out on anything, Lianne. Right. But that doesn't mean that there wasn't another trauma. That doesn't mean other things did not happen.

And the other thing that I think folks don't tend to realize is, I have so many clients that come to me and they say, but my parents fed me and my parents kept a roof over my head and you know, I had the books that I needed for school. And I'm like, that's fantastic. And I'm not saying your parents are bad people. But that doesn't mean that they met your emotional need. So there's a difference between meeting a child's physical needs and meeting a child's emotional needs.

 If you have a caregiver where both of your caregivers are not capable or unwilling to meet your emotional needs, that is a trauma. And I don't think that that's something that we think about or talk about as a society. And a lot of times what I do in a session is it's almost like I have to permit them to say like, two things can be true at the same time. Your parents did the best that they could for you, and the decisions that they made caused some long-term emotional damage. For a lot of people, that's like news to them.

Lianne: Yeah. It was news to me.

Kandidly Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. And then people are always reluctant to... these are your parents. You don't want to like to look deep and say, you know what? They didn't meet my emotional needs. I was fed, I was helped I was, you know, I had all the things but I didn't have the thing that I needed. And I don't think that's because parents don't want to give it. Sometimes they just don't know how to give it or don't have it to give. So they only knew what they knew.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Right, right. Exactly. When you know better, you do better.

So I'm first generation American, right? My parents are from Guyana. So I was born in New York and in Guyano, the way that you raise your children is very different from how most Americans raise their children.

Kandidly Kristin: Right, right.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Like I remember growing up and my mom was like, oh, wait until your dad gets home with the belt. Right.

Lianne: Same.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: It was very, fear-based and so I grew up to be a very anxious adult, rather. And, you know, to this day, and again, I love my parents, my parents are fantastic people. I would not trade them for the world. And the decisions that they made have led to me having anxiety. That's something that I struggle with every day.

So, you know, it doesn't make you a bad person to acknowledge that your emotional needs went unmet and in like 98, 99 % of the cases, it's not that your parents were deliberately trying to hurt you or being intentional about it, but they only know what they know. Right. And for a lot of our parents, I mean, my parents were new to this country and they were trying to establish a life here and, you know, working hard and going to school and I'm the oldest, so I was, the experiment child.

Lianne: And back with my sister. I'm the baby. Yeah.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: So they didn't know about the fact, so until it was my turn, it's hard to go to college, so, you know, they're doing the best that they can and sometimes that means that your emotional needs go unmet, but it doesn't mean that they're bad people.

Kandidly Kristin: Right. That they didn't love you.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Right. Correct. Correct. Yeah.

Kandidly Kristin: So, the cultural piece is a good segue. Do you see a higher number of trauma bond-type relationships in a particular culture or socioeconomic group is there, or it's just across the board? It comes in all shapes, colors, and sizes, or is one part of the population or segment of the population more prone to it?

Natasha D’Arcangelo: I would say from a clinical perspective, it's across races, ethnicities, cultures, and socioeconomic status. The ACEs that I mentioned earlier, that was a study done by Anda and Felitti, pediatrician and a public health doctor out in California. When they first launched that study back in the nineties, they surveyed 17,000 people.

It was a lot of people, right? And what they found was 50% of the population had at least one ACE. Again, that was across gender, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, culture, and all of that. We don't realize how common ACEs are. So from a clinical perspective, no, that's not a determinant.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay. Alright.

Lianne: Yeah. What I realized, like doing research around domestic violence, you know, the stat that I came across that blew my mind is that one in three women is a victim in their lifetime of being in these types of relationships. And you know, it's something that's happening so much more than we even realize There's such a stigma around it.

We don't wanna talk about it because it's very uncomfortable to bring it to the light, but it's happening everywhere. It doesn't matter what you have in your bank account, doesn't matter your size, doesn't matter, your religion, you know, it's happening so much more often than we realize. So we have to talk about it.

So we don't normalize that it's okay cuz it's not right.

Kandidly Kristin: And we take the stigma away and more people are willing to say, Hey, you know what, I am in this situation. Yep. So ladies, what are the top signs that you have formed a trauma bond?

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Lianne, I think you should go first with lived experience.

Lianne: Yeah, no. Absolutely. I looked up a blog post just to see what people were saying, and every single thing that I saw on this blog post I experienced. So wanting to change your partner, as I said before, I felt like I could fix him, I could save him. That was something that I experienced. Keeping him a secret from my family. Like no one people knew that I was in a relationship, but they never met him because I just got that feeling that like, I don't wanna introduce him to people that I know. And I think that's a red flag. Like if you feel that way about your partner. Right. Something is off.

Kandidly Kristin: Right. Lianne, can I interrupt you and just ask, how long was that relationship?

Lianne: We were only together for 10 months, but it felt like 10 years. Yeah. But it happened very quickly. The relationship progressed super fast. It happened during Covid. I met him at the end of April 2020. So that's when the world was like locked down and you know, he moved in two weeks after we met, became boyfriend and girlfriend, and it just progressed very, very quickly. Which is another red flag. Another thing that I saw saying, is the good days, even if still outweigh the bad, that's something that I experienced too. Oh, it's not that serious. Oh, it's not gonna happen again, but it's gonna happen again and it's gonna be worse every single time and unable to leave.

I saw a statistic that the average number of times it takes a victim to leave this type of relationship is seven. For me, it was three times, and the last time, as I said earlier, was the most horrific thing that I ever experienced that I went through, but it's hard, and I think a lot of people don't understand until they're in it. Like we said before, a lot of society questioned, oh, why didn't you just leave? And I used to be that type of person too before I found myself in this type of relationship. But you don't understand until you're in it how difficult it is to be in these types of relationships.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Yeah. Also statistically, just so folks know, when you do leave, that is when you are in the most danger. And so I don't think people realize that, but I have worked with clients before where they have planned for years to be able to leave. And so if you have somebody that you care about that you suspect is in this kind of relationship, The best thing that you can do for them is not lecturing them about leaving.

Kandidly Kristin: Right.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Chances are they're probably already thinking about it or they want to leave, but if there are children involved with kids, yeah, there are a lot of people that stay because of their pets, the partner will threaten to kill the dog or something like that. Or a lot of times, again, going back to that power and control wheel, many times the partner will not allow the other person to work. And so financially where you gonna end up almost on the streets,

Kandidly Kristin: right? Yeah. Right.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: So, it's not as simple as just leave and remember if you have somebody that you know and love that's in this situation, what if and when they do decide to leave, cuz it has to be their decision; that is when they're in the most dangerous situation, statistically, that's when they're likeliest to get hurt.

So the best thing that you can do for them is provide them with resources. You know, see if there's like a local domestic violence shelter in the area, give them the phone number. Here in Orlando, there are two domestic violence shelters, and I know one of them has a 24 7 hotline one of the services that hotline provides is even if the person is not ready now to leave, they'll help you start putting together a plan. They'll help you figure out the things that you need to put in place to be able to leave as safely as you possibly can.

So, sorry, I think I gotta away from the original question, but I wanted to put that, I wanted to put that off.

Kandidly Kristin: Thank you. As much information as we can cram into this chat is all the better if one person hears it and recognizes that what they think and feel they're in is what it is. That's the most important thing.

So how can that person that's listening and who thinks or knows that they're trauma bonded with their partner who's abusive in whatever way they're abusive, how can they begin to detach and then ultimately heal? Leave and heal.

Lianne: For me since, you know, I experienced that the healing process started for me when I decided to speak up. As I said before, no one knew what was going on until that night when my life was almost taken away from me, and that was the first time that I spoke up. I ran to my best friend's apartment. It was like one o'clock in the morning. I'm half naked, I'm dishevelled, and I'm banging on the door and she opens up and she's like, what the hell is going on? And I told her, and she was the one who pushed me to call 9 1 1 because I wasn't even going to because I was scared to get him in trouble. I was worried about what's gonna happen to him. So I think the first important step like I said, I'm only gonna speak on me and my experience, but using your voice to take your power back has completely changed my life.

As scary as it may be if you have at least one person in your life that you trust, whether it's a friend, family, professional, or whatever it is, you gotta tell somebody what's going on. You don't need to continue suffering in silence because, Unfortunately, we see it so many times on the news, how many cases where the victim succumbs to the abuse, and they're no longer able to speak up and say what's going on.

So the first step is just to talk about it as uncomfortable as it is.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: And I don't think I could have said it any better, but yeah, reach out to somebody. You know, being a therapist, I'm gonna encourage people to go to counseling and go to therapy. Some therapists specialize in this, right?

 Sometimes when you're in a trauma-bonded relationship like this, your partner will monitor your internet use and so be careful what you're Googling because they can see that internet search history. But if you have somebody that you trust, or if you can go to a public library and you can use a computer there, you can look up what are the local resources for a domestic violence shelter.

Also, all of those websites, if you do Google, them, they do have, I'm sure there's an IT chart. I don't know what the IT chart is, right? But there's a little box in the corner that says, if you need to get out of this website, quickly click here. So if you do happen to be in the house and the person comes back unexpectedly, all of those websites have that on there.

And so again, even if you're not ready to leave now, call a hotline because they're gonna have resources for you. They can help you put together a plan. Right? 9 88 launched last year. It's the Mental Health Alternative to 9 1 1. Yes, it's a crisis line. They are available 24 7. So that's another thing that I would encourage folks to reach out to.

Rain is another resource that not everybody knows about. It's the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Their phone number is (800) 656-4673. The Trevor Project also has a crisis hotline. There's the Trans Lifeline, so there are resources out there. So I would encourage you to do a little bit of research in a place that's safe for you where your internet traffic is not going to be monitored and connect to those resources, the people on the other end are going to be a safe and non-judgmental space for you.

Kandidly Kristin: Absolutely.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Reach out for help. I promise you there are people on the other end of this I've worked with, for me, it's been women. I haven't had any folks aside from males at birth that have been in domestic violence at least in my clinical expertise. But the women that I've worked with, they've been in active abuse situations, and so, Don't feel like if you're currently in an abusive situation, that if you go to see a counselor, the only thing the counselor's gonna tell you is to leave. That's not my job. I can't tell you to do that. That's not my decision to make. I'm not living your life.

Now, if you come to me and you tell me you need help and you want resources, I have had women in my office before where we call the domestic violence shelter together and they start writing down a plan in my office. I will do that with you, but I'm not gonna tell you that you need to leave because that's not my decision to make. So don't feel like if you're going to a counselor that it's pointless because they're just gonna tell you to leave.

Kandidly Kristin: Right.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Like Lianne was saying, even just having one person listen to you can be at least some kind of relief, and hopefully we'll be able to provide you with some resources.

Kandidly Kristin: Let's talk a little bit about post-trauma bonds and post-abusive relationships. What are some... I guess everybody's journey is different, but Lianne, for you, because it is your lived experience. Your journey to healing once you were out included, I'm guessing, your podcast.

Lianne: Yes, but that was not until I've been like really in it. So immediately after I escaped, I was living outta state. I was actually in Florida and I came back home to my home state and I was around my family. When I was in this relationship as I said, no one knew what was going on and I very much isolated myself, and he was also isolating me from my family and my close circle, which is something that happens in these relationships. So to be around people who I knew loved me and protected me and cared about me was helpful. I'm blessed. I don't wanna take that for granted because I know a lot of people don't have the support that I'm grateful to have had.

And then like I said, speaking up and asking for help and working with professionals. I started going to therapy. At first, I did group therapy, which was a little bit triggering for me because I was still very fresh and this was something that I never experienced before in my life. And like I said, growing up I didn't see that. I knew no one who experienced that too. But once I started going to solo therapy and I found a therapist who just made me feel safe and I was able to express myself in a way that I wasn't being judged and I didn't feel that shame that came from being in that relationship; that helped too.

And then I also worked with a life coach, so I think just asking for help, it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable for us to be vulnerable, to talk about the ugly things that we've gone through, but for me and my lived experience, When I started asking for help when I started working with professionals, and then when I started talking about it and I started my podcast and all of that has been so healing for me.

It has been a very up-and-down journey. I don't wanna make it seem like it's rainbows and butterflies because it's not. But you know, taking my power back with my voice has changed my life.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Okay, that self-bullet.

Lianne: Thank you.

Kandidly Kristin: Very nice. Thank you ladies so much. So I'd like each of you to just briefly give last thoughts and best advice for anyone that hears this, that's in a toxic relationship, domestic violent situation, and is trauma bonded with their partner.

And either you can go first.

Lianne: Natasha, I'll let you go since I just spoke.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Okay. Uh, the first thing that came to my mind is your worth. Yeah, you're worthy, yeah, you deserve better. And I promise you that if you're thinking about getting out and you're thinking that this is not the place that you want to be, as hard as it is, people are waiting, ready, standing by, that are here to support you and care about you and get you through this.

Whether that is a professional counsellor, whether that's a staff at the domestic violence shelter, whether that's friends or family that you have, the best thing that you can do is reach out like me and said to at least one person, and don't feel like you're in this alone because I promise you, I promise you that you are not alone in it.

And if you are, if you've been waiting for a sign from the universe, let this be your sign to reach out to somebody and let this be your kicking the behind to stop keeping the secret and talk to somebody.

Lianne: I like ditto everything that she said.

The only thing that I wanna add is that don't think that it's not gonna happen again. Because these types of people like to manipulate you and say, I'm sorry, I love you. They love to bond with you. You know, please forgive me. I'm not gonna do it again. It's gonna happen again and it's going to get worse, period. Point blank.

So I want you guys to hold onto that. Don't think that whatever it is that you need to do to fix them, you can't. The only person who can change themselves, Is them, and it's not your responsibility to try and fix someone who's broken, who needs professional help and healing. That's not your responsibility.

What you need to take care of is yourself, and as Natasha said, you are worthy. You deserve healthy love, you deserve healing. You deserve all good things. You don't need to stay in these types of relationships. You don't need to continue losing yourself in this process. You're worth so much more than that. So start loving on you.

Kandidly Kristin: Yes.

Lianne: Oh, I remember. I'm saying that to myself.

Kandidly Kristin: Okay. Listen, I'm an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse, an adult survivor of domestic violence, so every time I do these episodes, it just reaffirms my healing and helps me in my journey. I am in a happy, healthy relationship now. And I'm 56 years old.

Lianne: Yes. I love that.

Kandidly Kristin: So listen ladies, thank you. It took us a long time to get here,

Lianne: we made it happen.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Yes.

Kandidly Kristin: Thank you for your time, your observation, your authenticity, your honesty, and all the information that you put out there.

 I can't thank you enough for this. Thank you so much.

Lianne: Thank you for the opportunity.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: And thanks everybody for listening.

Kandidly Kristin: Yes, and everybody that's listening, please remember, every single person walking the planet deserves a healthy relationship. So if you are listening to this show and you need help or resources to leave an abusive relationship, please, please, please reach out to 1 (800) 799 7233 or text starch to 88788 somebody is on the other end to help you.

So the last thing I need to do is need each of you to share with my listeners how they can connect with you. Lianne, you can go first.

Lianne: Sure. Thank you again so much for having me. I have my podcast. It's called Watch Us Thrive New episodes drop every Tuesday on your favorite streaming platform at 5:00 AM Eastern Standard Time.

You can also watch my video episodes on my YouTube channel under the same handle Watch US Thrive podcast. I'm super, super active on Instagram, so if you wanna slide in my DMs, I'm very responsive. Watch a Thrive Podcast and visit my website where you can stay up to date with my episodes' blog posts https://wutpodcast.com/

Kandidly Kristin: Perfect. And Natasha?

Natasha D’Arcangelo: So my website, I'm currently shopping around, so I have somebody build it for me, so I can't find that yet. But in the meantime, the easiest way to find me is gonna be on LinkedIn. And you can just search by my name Natasha D'Arcangelo, which is also how you can get in touch with me by email.

So if you have any questions about any resources that I provided, I'm happy to provide them to you. It's natashad'arcangelo@gmail.com. Please do keep in mind if you choose to email me that is not a HIPAA-compliant email, so just don't put a lot of personal information in it.

You can just say: I'm looking for some resources, but to respect your privacy, we welcome all of the details.

Kandidly Kristin: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Not on Gmail.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Yeah, not on Gmail ever.

Kandidly Kristin: So both of your contact info. Leanne, your podcast info, Natasha, your LinkedIn and your email will be in the show notes, so they'll be forever embedded in this episode.

And I'm gonna give them clickable links that they can click and go to where they need to go to reach you, either one of you, if they just need, you know, a little help getting started with their plan to leave.

Lianne: So yes, if you need someone to talk to, hit us up. We got you.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Yep, exactly.

Kandidly Kristin: This has been amazing. Thank you, ladies.

Now listen all don't forget to visit my website www.thekandidshop.com and listen to an episode, drop me a review. Share the show with your friends, please. The more people that listen, the more I grow the show and the more impact I can have and bring you more great content.

So, Lianne, Natasha, thank you again for sharing this little bit of time with me on this really, important episode. Thank you so very much.

Lianne: Thank you. It's my pleasure.

Natasha D’Arcangelo: Thank you.

Kandidly Kristin: All right, you're welcome. And as always, guys, I want everyone listening to keep it safe, keep it healthy and keep it kandid.