BEST OF SEASON 3: Forgiveness is a Choice: A Kandid Chat on the Illusion of Mandatory Forgiveness w/Michelle Agopsowitz

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Hola, Podcast Nation. It is your girl, Kandidly Kristin, and this is The Kandid Shop, your number one destination for candid conversations. Toxic forgiveness is a really, really hot topic right now. So today I am sitting down for a candid chat about it with counselor, Reiki Master, and founder of Illuminated Path Counseling, Michelle Agopsowicz. And I hope I said that right. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Michelle.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: You said it perfectly.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I have it spelled out phonetically on my notes, so I didn't mess it up. I am really, like, super excited to be having this chat since I first heard this term, toxic forgiveness, that was coined by Nedra Glover-Tawaab, and she defines toxic forgiveness as the unhealthy way people pretend to be unharmed over it or forgetful of an offense in order to keep the peace or to avoid being labeled bitter, scorned, or some someone who holds a grudge. I literally have been chomping at the bit to have this chat.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, yeah. And I would add to that definition maybe a little bit, because trauma is sort of my jam, as strange as it is to say that, that I think it's a bit of a trauma reaction as well. That we don't want to be too much. We don't want anyone to see our woundedness. And so we kind of bypass the whole experience. And I think as a society, we somehow feel this is a prerequisite, that we have to forgive someone.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes, and stuff down how we really, really feel. Because all our lives we hear, you know, forgiveness is for you. It's not for the other person. And not forgiving is just holding on to pain and anger. But I really think that we are generally, as a society, pressured, manipulated, bullied, whatever you want to call it, into, and I'm doing air quotes, forgiving somebody before we're really, really ready, if ever, So I have a Facebook group called Candidly Speaking that's tied to the podcast, and I do polls in there a lot. So I did a poll, and the question was, have you ever felt pressure to forgive someone before you were really ready? And of the people who responded, overwhelmingly, 67% said yes, 32% said, nope, I forgive when I'm ready, and 1% said, maybe, not sure, what is it?

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: And I feel, yeah, I feel like forgiveness is this, it's both organic, it just unfolds and happens, and we have to work at it. But just from this poll that you're saying, what strikes me about this is that there's some shame about not forgiving. Like somehow we're not a good person if we can't get there. Right, right, right. And then we need to be the bigger person. And I totally agree that, yes, forgiveness is for us, but in our own time. And there are also things that are unforgivable. There are there are nasty parts of humanity that you don't have to forgive.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Thank you. Thank you. And that was my next question. And you kind of answered it is, do you think personally that forgiveness is always necessary in order to move forward?

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: No, and I think, you know, I was struck by this idea that I think these things intersect in a really way that we can have sacred anger. And sacred anger to me is the things we should be mad about in life. So we should be mad about racism, we should be mad about misogyny, we should be mad about war. These things under no circumstance, sexual abuse, physical abuse, these things under no circumstance are okay. And so we should have some sacred anger about those. And there are situations where this is so wounding for us that there's absolutely no way we have to forgive. If we want to forgive and if we come to forgiveness, then that's a beautiful place to be. But we're not less of a person if we don't get there. We're not less spiritual if we don't get there. We're not less good. You're not going to finish this lifetime and somehow you're going to have to come back and do it again because whoops, you didn't forgive.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yep. I agree. I agree. So how do you believe that toxic forgiveness and relationships and all relationships, romantic, familial, professional, how do they intersect?

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, I think it really comes up to this place where most families and society and professionally, most of us really don't like conflict. And even if we're okay with conflict, we don't like the hard emotions and we definitely don't like to see somebody that we love and care about suffering. So I think we force people into this talk, forgiveness out of our own manipulation of the situation and needing to not watch someone else suffer. Got it. So in a really strange way, it's actually not about the person that's been impacted by what you're being asked to forgive. It's all the people surround them that say, that's so hard to watch. I would really like them to forgive so that I don't have to watch this other person suffering anymore.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Do you, because I don't necessarily think that not forgiving somebody is always, and this is I'm making really general statements, always detrimental to the person who's being asked to forgive. Like, you know, the whole notion that if you don't forgive, you're just giving them control and holding on to the pain and the anger. But I don't believe that's always necessarily true.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: No, I don't think so either. No, I don't think so. And I think it's such a personalized thing. And yet in our discomfort, we do make these statements. And same with anything. Like when someone's grieving, we make these blanket statements. When someone's going through a divorce, we make these sort of the platitudes we give. And I think around forgiveness, the platitudes are exactly what you just said, right? Like set yourself free, don't give your power away. I think it's entirely possible to not give your power away. And to also say, I don't forgive that person. I also think it's okay to say, I don't forgive them and I'm also at a place where I'm fairly neutral around it.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. Okay. Okay. That's interesting. So toxic forgiveness or appeasement. Which do you think is more accurate in our conversation? Like when somebody is kind of pressured into forgiving and they're like, okay, I forgive you. Is that really forgiveness? Because that to me just feels more like appeasement.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Oh, yeah, I think it's appeasement. And I think it's people pleasing. And I think it's like, I'll just tell you what I want you to hear so that you'll go away. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Do you think that more people are pushed into forgiveness by the offender or by their circle?

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: You know, I think probably it depends on the situation, of course. I don't want to make blanket statements. Like if it's within a family, and you're seeing this person all the time, then I think there's definitely both. You're getting a lot of pressure to forgive the family member, but you're also getting pressure from the culture of the family that says we want our equilibrium back. We don't want this conflict within the family.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: It's too messy.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, exactly. So let's just calm this down, right? But if it's sort of somebody outside of someone that you see all the time, Then I think the pressure comes potentially from your social network that you're relying on to process what this is and in their discomfort, they're offering solutions and advice and trying to fix it. Because I think rather than, and we're all guilty of this, myself included being a counselor, I think rather than being able to hold space and just witness to the suffering and just bear witness to that suffering. is so much harder than trying to fix it and offer advice and solutions. Because that's what we're sort of patterned to do, too, is, well, have you tried this? And have you tried this? And have you just forgiven? And I think we think like, you know, I think it's the same as anything. You talk to people who are depressed, they often hear people say, well, you know, just decide to be happy. Yeah. And it's like, no, you know, you think I hadn't thought of that. Right. So I think it's the same thing with talks of forgiveness that often in our suggest are very well-meaning suggestions to help people. Yeah. We say, well, you know, have you decided, have you thought about forgiveness? And I think as the person who receives that, it's, I don't know, it's a bit of an eye roll for me. Right. I'm like, well, yeah, of course, if it was that easy, of course, I would have done it. Right. Yeah. And I think forgiveness is this very organic moving in and out because we can come close to touching forgiveness. And then the person might do the thing that triggered us again.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Or something real close to it.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah. And so then we move away from forgiveness again. Right? So I don't think it's an end state either. I don't think it's something that we just arrive at as this epiphany. And forgiveness is just now a thing. Okay. So, you know, I can get to the place of forgiveness because it's best for me and all of these other things. Until that person does the thing again. Right. And then it's like, seriously? Yeah, because it's hard to forgive if they haven't done their part in learning the lesson as to why it hurt you in the first place.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Absolutely. Change behavior is… Yeah. So how do you define forgiveness? Not toxic forgiveness, just forgiveness in its general sense?

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: I've often said around forgiveness that I actually don't think there's a very good English word that really embodies what this is. Because I think forgiveness just in the tense and the usage of the word really does seem like it is something you will just decide to do when you will arrive there.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: And then everything is all wonderful.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: And then everything will be fine. And I think it's the same as we use the word, like, healed. We're not ever healed. We're always healing. Okay. Right? So we have this very, you know, it's one of these things where we say, you know, I don't want to adult right now. Because part of being an adult is that you're constantly unpacking your stuff, looking at it, putting it away. Then it comes out again because we get triggered. And we look at it again. Like forgiveness is not a one and done thing.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, I agree.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: It's something that we're always working at. And another circumstance might come up in our life and we're like, oh, you know, I thought I'd forgiven. And I need to look at it again.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: And I think that's okay. I think that's okay. And I think this is one of the, but I think we create more suffering when we think it's a one and done thing as well. Yes, yes. Because then we introduce shame again thinking, well, what's wrong with me that somehow it's back again?

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes, yes. I must not have done the forgiveness thing right.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, and it plays along with all of the toxic, toxic positivity, any of the uncomfortable emotions that we have in our life as we want to bypass them. And societally, we're really encouraged to do that and we're praised for doing that. Yes. Because nobody wants to admit that we're all manipulative, that we're all resentful sometimes, that we're all angry sometimes, that we're all anxious sometimes. We don't want to go there.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. Right? I agree. So talk to me about your counselor. You deal with people regularly. And talk to me about what you see as some of the mental, emotional, physical manifestations of toxic forgiveness when it happens, when somebody has been pushed, pulled, bullied, whatever, into forgiving someone before they were really, really ready.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: So I think it really shows up as a denial of self and however that comes up for you because you're being silenced. So for some people it really shows up as depression. They're like I'm just going to retreat from everybody. I don't want to do this. I need to go inward. For some people it shows up as anxiety around every function where you're going to be with these people where you're expected to pretend. For other people, it's going to show up as anger and resentment and bitterness, as we said, which is why everyone tries to get you to – but it actually makes you more bitter. So in the statement of saying, well, stop being so bitter and get over it, we actually make people more resentful and bitter. But then I also think it physically shows up for a lot of people. So it also shows up for people in like stomach aches and headaches and that kind of physical manifestation because they're starting to dread going into any of these situations where this might be expected of them. Yeah. Right? So it also shows up socially, so people start to isolate. It also shows up mentally in terms of just our thought patterns. So when we're expected to go to this toxic forgiveness, the opposite actually happens. So we end up thinking about the situation more, ruminating about the situation more, thinking about it more, going over and over and over again. Yep. Our brain's trying to do what it's actually meant to do, but it's scanning, saying, why can't I find the solution for this to just get over it? Yeah. But the issue is and why it's ruminating in your mind in that way is because you're being forced into something you're not ready to do.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I agree. Yeah. That was interesting. So Michelle, what does healthy forgiveness look like for you? Say I'm your client and I'm in there and I'm like, you know, my mom and all these people and something's happened and I was, I felt pressured into forgiving that person and trying to make a way forward. And what would you tell them is a healthy version of forgiveness?

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah well I think now we lead into boundaries. So also then being able to say you know this is where I'm at in my forgiveness journey and I'm not there yet. But I'm working on it. So I think sometimes we need to let people know too like it isn't that I'm not working on it. I guess I'll give myself as a situation here. So I have a history of sexual abuse. Went from childhood sexual abuse. And within my family, I absolutely had the gift of being believed that this had happened. So that was one good resiliency factor for me. But my family is incredibly conflict-averse. And so, it was very much, okay, but let's not tell anyone, let's not create any waves, let's not get to any of this place, let's just, you know, we're just going to continue, we're not, you're going to have to go to these family functions, see these people, and you know, it's okay. And that was the wounding part for me, was that I had to know that people believed me, but I had to continue. That I should probably move forward. So the most wounding part for me was, okay, so now we have to pretend that it's okay and that you've forgiven and that everybody's okay and we just need to go forward. And as an adult, when I was doing my own therapy around this, what I realized, I was doing eye movement therapy around sexual abuse. And I burst out laughing in the middle of this therapy session. This was my moment of forgiveness. So 30 years later, I discovered my forgiveness on my own terms. I burst out laughing because I realized the sexual abuse had nothing to do with me. Right. I was just there and available. And it was strangely hilarious to me because I'd spent 35 years of my life thinking this was all my fault. And then I had to forgive it. And then my family expected it. And then we weren't going to talk about it and all these sorts of things. And I realized it had nothing to do with me. And that was my moment of forgiveness. Because I realized it wasn't my shame.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Oh, that's awesome. That is awesome.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: But, I mean, it happened to me when I was about 11 or so. Right. I wasn't ready until 35. And at 42, I can talk to other people and I'm like, oh, okay, I don't, but yeah, but I don't forgive that aspect of it.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right, yeah.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Because it's still not okay. Right. Absolutely not. So I can forgive and to set myself free as we say, right? Right. But it's not ever going to be okay. And I'm not ever going to forget. And it isn't ever not going to have had an impact in shaping who I am in good, bad, and ugly ways.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes. Yes. I agree. So Nidra Tawwab, the person who first coined this phrase, toxic forgiveness, This is what she says a healthy version of forgiveness looks like. It looks like acceptance of the event, learning to let go of some of the anger and feel less consumed by it. Just because we don't forgive a person, we can still be kind and pleasant. We, and I'm guessing she means society, we believe that unforgiveness is being mean to people, but you can be kind and not like people.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yes, and I think this is where truly healthy forgiveness comes in, is this neutrality. So it's like, it's not that it's not okay, but I can sit in a room with this person and coexist with them and be kind and be compassionate, maybe even understand why their nastiness caused something that needed to be forgiven. Because of course their woundedness is what causes hurt, right? Hurt people hurt people. But I think it is this neutrality to say exactly that. It's like, but I don't have to like it and I don't have to like you, but I can still sit here in a neutral place with my own boundaries.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: And I'm not a mean person because I won't forgive you or don't feel that that is what I need. Because it ultimately is about what the person who suffered the offense needs. And if forgiveness is not what they need to move forward, then people should stop pushing them to that.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, it's not a prerequisite.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: It's not.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: No, it's not at all. And you know, it comes down to all of these things, too, where it is the offended person, and we don't have to forgive something. That's right. We don't. But it doesn't mean that it has to continue to destroy our lives. That's right. But I think there's a societal idea that if we don't forgive, somehow it is. Yes. And I think for women especially, we have this good girl thing. Yes. So being a good girl, we've got to be nice, we've got to be kind. Being nice and kind doesn't mean we can't have a boundary. And not forgiving doesn't mean we're a raging bitch. and that we're somehow wounded and we need to, but we're so socialized to make things okay for other people, right? Like, oh, you know, Uncle Bobby, he makes you uncomfortable, but go hug him anyways. So we also really teach women to cross, like as little girls, we teach them to cross their boundaries all the time to be kind, right? I agree, I agree. And as a white woman, I'm not going to speak to this, but I'm curious about this for you, Kristin. When it comes to being a person of color, how often are you often asked to forgive something to make general society feel better for their racism and internalized oppression and things like that?

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: The microaggressions happen continually. And we're always, as a BIPOC person, expected to be bigger, to let it go. But why? They didn't mean it. Well, their intentions and the effect of whatever they said or did are two entirely different things.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, and this is a really good example again of how you're expected to forgive because you're supposed to make the offender in society, and air quotes here for me, white people, feel better.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right. That's a very good example. That is a very good example. And the contrast, because color aside, women in general have to do this, but particularly African American women, because God forbid we be the angry black woman in the room. And everybody seeming to forget that this person just reached out and ran their fingers through my locks and didn't ask. You know what I mean? So yeah, it shows up in a lot of ways like that for people of color.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: And as women, as you say, we are socialized to sort of stand there and take it to some degree so that we're not being rude. And not that men don't have toxic forgiveness as well, but I think that when men assert their boundaries around this, they're seen as assertive. were seen as angry, bitchy, aggressive. Exactly.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Exactly. Mm-hmm.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: And then what happens is I can actually feel it, like it rise, that sacred anger rises up from my belly and I'm like, oh no, I'm not forgiving now. Yep.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yep. Yep. Your faith gets hot and it's like, okay, okay. And then the offended person feels the need to push down that anger, that sacred anger. And I love that term, by the way. I'm going to start using it. to just push it down just so that we don't come across as bitter, angry, bitchy. And I think that that is not an effective way to manage any offense that has occurred or any kind of forgiveness that may or may not happen.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: which I think is so different if I can segue for a minute around the apology, which I think is also such an integral part of forgiveness or toxic forgiveness, is I think we're also not taught to genuinely have critical thought and reflect around our peace in why we might need to apologize to someone and how we can actually make a genuine apology and then follow up that up with our behavior.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes, thank you. Yes.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Versus, well, I'm Canadian, so I'm going to say we're classically known for just wandering around saying thank you and sorry for every single thing.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: You're the fourth Canadian person that has said that. I'm like, really? Is it a real thing like that?

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, it's a real cultural thing. We're just, you know, like, it's like we apologize for our existence. I don't know. We wander around and somebody looks at you like, oh, I'm sorry. And you get a little close to me like, oh, I'm sorry. Like, thank you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm thank you. And eventually it loses, and I've heard in my travels other countries have said, you know, I don't know if I can trust you guys because you're always apologizing for something that we're not sure that you actually did. And so I think then the apology also becomes this really empty gesture. Yes. to just make the conflict go away. You can tell when someone is genuinely like, oh my God, I am so sorry, that's not what I meant. You can tell when it's genuine and you can tell when it's trying to just shine the spotlight off them and move back into toxic forgiveness. Yep.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yep. And I agree with that 100%. The best apology to me is change behavior. if somebody really doesn't understand why it wasn't okay for you to touch my hair, and they apologize, but then they follow up with questions and to try to get an understanding about why that was inappropriate. That means so much to me if I'm the person that's offended because it kind of shows that you really were genuinely sorry, uninformed, whatever it was, but you're seeking to not be that going forward.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yes. First is the apology that says, I'm sorry, but… And then they go on to defend something that isn't really defendable.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Defendable, absolutely. So listen, I want to segue a little bit, and I want you to talk to me about illuminated path counseling. Tell me the why, the what, and the how of what it is you do.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, I think as a counselor, probably the same as you, Kristin, our purpose in life often comes from our own experience. And so my private practice really came out of me being diagnosed with an autoimmune condition as a result of some of my sexual abuse. And my healing process that came out of that of realizing I needed to find some semblance of self-love. And so the name Illuminated Path comes from this idea of my own dark night of the soul. So the darkest depths of the moments of my life where I didn't know if I would go on. There was always this path that just illuminated a little bit further ahead of me, a little bit further ahead of me. And so I'm incredibly passionate about sharing the many things that I have done in my darkest moments to help other people. So within our profession of counseling, we're often discouraged from having social media, that kind of thing. But I started thinking about this idea that I wanted a YouTube channel and social media where I could share little tidbits of mental health for free. Because it's not always accessible to people either. So I wanted to give people strategies. I wanted to give my client strategies. And then what came out of that is I started developing a trauma recovery course and a mindfulness through the census course because I wanted to share with people what I had learned not only professionally for many, many years of school, but also personally what I discovered worked for me, which of course might not work for someone else, right? Which is fine. But it's really in many ways, and this might sound very dramatic, it's It's kind of a love song, love poem to myself, to my younger self and the unfolding of the change that I want to see in the world because as a social worker as well. You know, social workers don't just look at the individual aspect of it too. I'm also really passionate about, okay, so trauma is the root of what causes racism and sexism and just nastiness in the world. It also is what causes it. us to be okay with destroying our planet and destroying each other and blowing each other up and doing all of these other really things. And if we can heal and be comfortable with ourselves and love ourselves, then we have no need to go out and destroy other people. Yeah, yeah.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Oh, interesting. So, you know, I was poking around your site and I thought, oh, this is really nice. I love the name Illuminated Path. And now that I know the backstory, I love it even more. You're so sweet. So if you could give me your last thoughts and speak directly to the listeners about toxic forgiveness, specifically to the person who has been offended, and then give your thoughts to the to the people around them who may unwittingly be pushing them to forgive before they're ready.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, so the first thing I would say to the person who's being asked to engage in toxic forgiveness, to just take a breath and come back to your body. call yourself home. Because what happens when we're asked to do these things is suddenly, this is going to be a stance from a bit of a Reiki master perspective as well here, is that we start to give our energy and little fragments out to this person and this person and this person and then suddenly we're not sure where we stand in our body. So come back home to yourself We can do this through the breath we can do this through a really nice thing that I like to do is I like to tap underneath my collarbones, which is Stimulates the vagus nerve. Okay, and I say out loud I am Michelle a cop switch and only Michelle a cop switch and I call all of my energy back hmm And I send everyone else's energy and agenda back with love. And I'll say that three times so that I can come back into my center, my heart space, my gut reaction so that I am doing what's best for me and not what's best for everybody else. That's awesome. And just the way we are wired as humans, we need to do that over and over and over again. I do it constantly throughout the day. I come back to myself. Who am I? What is my opinion? What do I need? Not what everybody else needs. And then once we learn how to do that, the next step that's a little bit less comfortable is being able to, in a really kind and compassionate way, set our boundary. Yeah. So this might sound something like, you know, I appreciate your perspective on that, but I'm not ready to forgive yet. And that's okay because I'm working on it. Right. And it's not going to change anything for me to rush through the process that I'm needing to go through. And I would almost come out with a little mantra, a little phrase that I would practice ahead of time about what is my boundary statement. So something like, thank you for your perspective on that. I'm not ready to do it. Sure, whatever that might be. Short, easy to remember so that it becomes a bit of a muscle memory to say this is my boundary statement around this. And you're basically saying I've heard you and I respect you and I need you to respect me. And then if we turn that to the people who are asking for the toxic forgiveness from someone, I would actually ask everyone listening, as much as you don't like it, where do you also do it to other people? Because we probably all do. And what is the agenda in that? Are you feeling uncomfortable yourself with the intensity of the feeling or the conflict or whatever's happening in that? And so you're actually asking this of somebody else because of your own discomfort. Because that's usually what it is. If it's a genuine need to help, then it's about being able to hold space and bear witness to that pain without trying to fix it. And if you do, as we all do, stumble in and say, well, have you tried this? Have you forgiven yet? Because we'll all do it. It's fine. Then also catch yourself in that apology and say, oh, you know, I am so sorry. offered a solution and I'm aware that that's probably not what you're looking for right now.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: And it just backs it up and neutralizes it again.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Because we have to be able to just sit and not have to rush people through it.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yep. We love to do, do, do, do, do, do, and not just be. Sometimes you just need to be and let other people be at their pace, because it's their pace. It was their offense. They are the one that was harmed.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah. I'm loving this conversation because it's something I haven't thought about before. What if holding space is the ultimate act of radical nonviolence? Because what we're doing when we're asking someone else to forgive before they're ready or we're offering advice or solutions before they're wanting to hear those advice or solutions, what we're doing is basically we're saying, the way you're doing it is wrong and I have all the answers for you. And I don't know about you, but anyone else who's ever come in and tried to do my work for me, didn't get me further along in the process. And any time I've gone to somebody I love very much and tried to show them the pattern and error of their ways. I am actually robbing them of the experience and opportunity to heal that themselves.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: And to learn whatever lesson is in there.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yes, yes. And so is it a radical act of nonviolence to not offer solutions because you're no longer stealing someone else's opportunity to heal? Or not heal? Yeah. Yeah.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: And that's the thing, we just want, when you love somebody, you want them to be okay. And you see them, and to you, to the observer, you're like, oh, if they would just forgive, they would feel better. But you don't know that. That may be true for you, but we're talking about them. So let them have their process, whatever that may be.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: which is completely different than how we're socialized. We're socialized to wander around and offer people advice. But if we stay in our own lane, it's like, no, actually, that's more kind.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: It really is.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: But it feels powerless. Because we're like, oh, I'm not doing anything to help this person. Yes, you are.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: And because you don't know how to hold space for people. We don't know when people are grieving, same thing. We got to come in here and, you know, offer ways so they can speed up their process or whatever. And instead of just showing up and shutting up.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's okay if the process takes six months, three days or 10 years or a lifetime.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: It's fine. Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly. I love that. I love that. That last part about the radical act of nonviolence, just holding space. That's what we should be learning.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: We should be learning that in school, family. We should be learning this. This should be Parenting 101, right? But we are all taught to fix and take away pain, which actually doesn't take any pain away.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Because stuffing down your feelings is never a healthy thing, ever.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: No, no. And it pops up in weird and wild and mysterious ways.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes, indeed. Yes, it does. Oh my gosh, Michelle, this has been amazing. I knew it would be, though. I knew it would be. So before we wrap up, I just want you to tell my listeners how they can connect with you and Illuminated Path Counseling if they would like to.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, so probably the easiest way is on YouTube, Facebook, or Instagram. I'm at IlluminatedPathCounseling. You can also jump onto my website, IlluminatedPathCounseling.com, and there's the links to all of my social media as well as my online courses. I would love to have you come check me out.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes. Yes. And guys, you know that all of Michelle and Illuminated Path's contact info will be in the show notes with clickable links. That'll take you where you want to go and the course that she's, tell me about the course.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, so I've got two at the moment. I'm hoping to get a whole bunch more out this year. So the first one is a trauma recovery method. It's about rediscovering resiliency through mindfulness. So it's looking at the patterns of coping that you have in your life as a result of what's come out of trauma. And I'll make a little plug here about trauma. Most people think trauma is these horrible, horrific things that happen to us, which do. Trauma is essentially anything that overwhelms our system. So that can be microaggressions, that can be bullying, that could be divorce and grief and loss. It could be a car accident. It could be just feeling like you don't belong in the world. All your nervous system reacts as if that's traumatizing. So what the course looks at is your patterns of coping strategies, your family of origin, and how to come back to your body and heal some of that trauma through your nervous system. Okay. Yeah, and then I've got a mindfulness through the senses which is just a 10-day meditation challenge to come back to your body and integrate through the senses and in grounding and things like that.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice, nice. I'm a big believer in grounding.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Yeah, over and over and over. Yes.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, oh my gosh, Michelle Agopsowicz, and I had to look up, so I said your name right again. I can't thank you enough for this conversation. This has been so much more than I thought it would be. You brought so many new and interesting perspectives into the topic of toxic forgiveness, because I've researched it, but hearing some of the things you said, I'm like, okay, I love that. They're all going to be in the show notes, too.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: And thank you, Kristin, for just being a beautiful, gracious host for just being changed in the world of just having these amazing conversations.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Thank you. Thank you. It is what I am called to do. And so I'm answering that call. So guys, again, Michelle and Illuminated Path Counseling, social media and website links will be in the show notes along with some key takeaways. I'm not going to put everything in there because I want you to listen to the whole conversation. And don't forget to check out my channel, www.thecandidshop.com, Candid with a K. On all social, we are @The Kandid Shop Podcast, again, Candid with a K. I thank you again, Michelle, so very much for giving me this little bit of your day. You could have been doing anything else, and you're here with me and my listeners, so I thank you again.

MICHELLE AGOPSOWICZ.: Thank you, Kristin.

KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Alright guys, until next time, I want you all to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it kandid.